Enjoy https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__youtu.be_5Q2XzLvuJWc&d=DwIF-g&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=w0eZbdVOryG4ienvgZjqOp6E_Vcu5Flk6LTuVBo57Y8&s=qQtOJN871109OnChMCFE4mbQDuCN6xVQCv2zybTJ99k&e= James Tyler Carpenter, PhD, FAACP www.metispsych.com https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.experts.com_Expert-2DWitnesses_search-3Fkeyword-3DClinical-2520psychology-26keywordsearchtype-3DAll-2520Words-26category-3DClinical-2520forensic-2520-26categorysearchtype-3DAny-2520Word-26name-3DJames-2520tyler-2520carpenter-26namesearchtype-3DAll-2520Words-26company-3DMetis-26companysearchtype-3DAll-2520Words-26address-3D-2520-26addresssearchtype-3DAll-2520Words-26state-3DMA-26statesearchtype-3DAny-2520Word-26country-3DALL-2520-28or-2520Choose-2520a-2520Country-29-26countrysearchtype-3DAll-2520Words-26page-3D1-26freshsearch-3D1&d=DwIF-g&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=w0eZbdVOryG4ienvgZjqOp6E_Vcu5Flk6LTuVBo57Y8&s=F0MerTngOh5sqp2-djckQj6kpWOUj4bJCfCUDHC23bA&e= ________________________________ From: tree of knowledge system discussion <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of easalien <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Saturday, October 3, 2020 3:35:23 PM To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]> Subject: TOK: Is a spider's web a part of its mind? Hey Deepok, Finally had a chance to watch your description of the ALCCO, and truth be told, the complexity of it was slightly mind-numbing. I fully agree, though, with your contention that the mind acts in contravention to entropy (could you expand on this further?). Several points: 1. With regards to a clear mathematical formulation of awareness, it may not be necessary. While math is fundamental to material universe, you declared that “mind is not material by definition.” While you make a distinction between mind and awareness, they’re deeply related. Math also breaks down at certain points, such as singularities, broken symmetries, and Gödel’s Incompleteness Theorems. 2. The ontological distinction between material body and immaterial mind appears to be Memory. The memory itself is not the functionalist analog of physiological phenomena; it is the distinct unified experience of waking reality. This inability to reconcile material brain and immaterial memory manifests an event horizon, much like in black holes. Your thought experiment between toddlers appears to support this interpretation. 3. Words seem to be the crux of the issue. We can’t agree what they mean, so we’re stuck arguing in circles. Having worked with kids for years, I can tell you words are plastic and easily acquire new meaning depending on context. It’s best to stick with the facts. 4. In discussing the emergence of mind, individual memory appears to be a core component. When an entity can distinguish itself from its surroundings via recognition, it appears to establish a sense of self. This would give Mind to a young child but not a zygote while differentiating between individuals. However, as an event horizon, it is observably unverifiable. The Emergence of Mind isn’t a single event, it’s many. Eric On Thursday, October 1, 2020, Deepak Loomba <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: Thanks for sharing this, Deepak. I very much like and agree with the important distinction between functional awareness and (experiential) consciousness. DL: But what is critically important is the provision of a clear mathematical formula to calculate the awareness, which has not been given previously. I would need to know what you meant by “nonmaterial” to see if I agree. DL: Since highlighted by Rene Descartes, mind, in western philosophy has been considered as a "thinking thing" (Latin: res cogitans), and an immaterial substance. The central claim of what is often called Cartesian dualism, in honor of Descartes, is that the immaterial mind and the material body, while being ontologically distinct substances, causally interact. Conversely, the Vedantic (Vedas) philosophy of India has considered mind as the subtle form of matter, where in the body and its components are considered the grossest forms. Consciousness, on the other hand, is considered finer than 'mind-matter' and is considered all pervasive, omnipresent and omniscient. Also, I would hesitate in that I do not think words have meanings independent of the time and context in which they are used. Words exist in systems of justification that consist of the language, socio-historical context, the metaphysical network of concepts, and so forth. DL: Words have a semantic skeleton and contextual flesh. Yes the fleshy contextual substance varies and is different from skeleton. But it only varies in its disproportionate distribution from one to other context and time. Nonetheless, the skeleton remains unchanged over large periods of time. Yes, across multiple generations the skeleton too changes form, but generally this change is difficult to perceive. Grounded in the descriptive metaphysics afforded by the ToK System, “Mind” is a complex adaptive plane of existence that emerges out of the Life plane at about the time of the Cambrian Explosion and refers to the set of mental behaviors mediated by “the mind” which refers to the information instantiated within and processed by the brain/nervous system. In this language system, it is reasonable to consider the web an extension of the spider’s mind, but not part of its mind in the “proper” definitional sense of information instantiated within and processed by the nervous system. DL: Since I have recently joined and not yet studied TOK, I have no bonafides to comment on this. In ALCCO theory propounded by your humble friend, I felt no need at all to describe or talk of mind. Awareness, Life, Consciousness left no need or scope for mind. Indeed, often that which is referred to as mind is a combination of these three. And more particularly it is infonomy and informational components of living (incl human) systems. But since you said mind emerged during Cambrian Explosion. My relevant query is - does a zygote have a mind. Please tell me when does a mind happen in a human within his life time. In case you have an answer please provide. In case not, then my cascading query would be, in case it is difficult to project time of mind appearance in an apparently observable organism - a zygote or a toddler, what is the validity of a prediction emerging from 500 million years ago. In case you provide an answer, kindly ignore the second part of my statement as my ignorance. TY Deepak Loomba Best, Gregg From: tree of knowledge system discussion <[log in to unmask]><mailto:[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Deepak Loomba Sent: Thursday, October 1, 2020 4:09 AM To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Is a spider's web a part of its mind? Hello Colleagues. (a) Mind is not material by definition. Therefore, 'mind' becomes inaccurate anyways to be used for a spider web. (b) I think the video provides a very sensible phenomenon in the beginning. The web is an extension of senses to compensate for extremely small memory. It is akin to an addressbook or a diary for humans. Indeed in ALCCO approach I term everything (material) whose form and shape is altered non-spontaneously (with intent) by aware entities (humans incl.) are all collective public-pool of external memory, which outlives us. "Milieu shaped by intent is external (higher complexity) memory." A thought experiment: Two twin toddlers are separated, one grows in a desolated, abandoned city with skycrapers, lifts, computers all alive and operational. And other on an island with nothing but trees and sand. Who will grow more similar to us? There is another interesting thought experiment in my book 'Awareness & Consciousness - Discovery, Distinction & Evolution - The New Upanishad' [ISBN: 978-1692201227], whose exact copy is the spider scenario. The same is mentioned on the last 2 page of the extract enclosed herewith. Truly yours Deepak Loomba On 10/1/2020 12:51 PM, easalien wrote: Hey Gregg, Good question. The web is a deeply-ingrained extension of the spider’s instinctual memory. If we lack a shared language to discuss that, it’s due to proliferation of symbolic representations of mind. Until we recognize the primacy of memory, our arguments are doomed to indeterminacy. Symbols don’t mean anything if we can’t remember them. Eric On Tuesday, September 29, 2020, Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: Hi TOK List, The question posed by this video<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.realclearscience.com_video_2020_09_24_is-5Fa-5Fspiders-5Fweb-5Fa-5Fpart-5Fof-5Fits-5Fmind.html&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=iOiKrGMrDf_0_iqANZoNIKrQZ7HkTWx8Dx3tePSI3Wc&s=gLqJ_FOY5L43ouNQ81SaTJz9Cnw5WcyJfTTVP1y7gLI&e=> is: “Is a spider’s web part of its mind?” Do we have a clear, shared language system that can answer this question? Best, Gregg ___________________________________________ Gregg Henriques, Ph.D. Professor Department of Graduate Psychology 216 Johnston Hall MSC 7401 James Madison University Harrisonburg, VA 22807 (540) 568-7857 (phone) (540) 568-4747 (fax) Be that which enhances dignity and well-being with integrity. 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