Chiming in that this insight from Joe and Jane Goodall is a critical and extraordinary piece of evidence that I return to consistently in my own theorizing and justifying ever since he shared it with us. Genius question and rewarding answer =Chance On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 9:30 AM Joseph Michalski <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > *CAUTION: *This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click links > or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is > safe. > ------------------------------ > Hi folks. On the justification issue, some of you already know this > (apologies for the repeat), but I had a chance to speak one-on-one with > Jane Goodall two years ago when we were awarding her an honorary doctorate > from my university. I had the chance to ask her directly about her > understanding of chimpanzees and their manner of handling conflicts. She > described their communication patterns and the contexts within which the > behavioral responses unfolded. Absolutely fascinating. Then I chose to ask > her more directly if she sensed or could interpret whether the chimpanzees > communicated any type of "justification" for their actions or provided some > type of rationale thru their communications to in some way "defend" their > position or behavior. She immediately understood what I was asking and, > just as quickly, responded (I'm paraphrasing): "Absolutely not. I could see > nothing in their communication that would indicate some kind of > justification. They were clearly unhappy at times and developed some > patterned responses, but that's as much as I could tell." In short, she was > conveying to me that as "human-like" as the chimpanzees were in some > respects, there's also a clear gap even with her experience and intimate > knowledge between humans and chimpanzees. That said, I understand that we > are still by virtue of our social locations as observing and understanding > from an "etic" perspective - and that not even Jane Goodall could truly > understand chimpanzees from an "emic" perspective. But she did seem to > think there's a fundamental gap, even still, between chimpanzees and > humans. That could change with evolution, of course. Just takes a long time! > > Best, -Joe > > Dr. Joseph H. Michalski > > Professor > > King’s University College at Western University > > 266 Epworth Avenue, DL-201 > > London, Ontario, Canada N6A 2M3 > > Tel: (519) 433-3491 > > Email: [log in to unmask] > > ______________________ > > *ei*π + 1 = 0 > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* tree of knowledge system discussion < > [log in to unmask]> on behalf of Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx < > [log in to unmask]> > *Sent:* Sunday, October 18, 2020 8:22 AM > *To:* [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]> > *Subject:* Re: Sensemaking Episodes on the Stoa > > > Eric, > > Yes, please see the Stoa podcast #2. I am aware of the animal language > studies. The most amazing, IMO, is Alex the grey parrot. Anyway, I worked > closely with Sue Savage Rumbaugh for several years and we devised outlines > of proposals to see if we could determine if bonobos might be able to > justify their actions. She thought they could, but I was and remain > skeptical. Unfortunately, unrelated disruptions at the Great Ape Trust > derailed our collaborations, and we have not been in contact since 2010… > > > > Also, human language is almost certainly PRE-agrarian. I don’t know of any > account that places it post-agrarian industrial. (Keep in mind, writing is > ~5,000 years old). Late blooming language accounts are in the ~50,000 years > ago. Some early accounts push it back to 500,000 or even 1,000,000. The > Unified Theory argues for a fractured symbolic communication sometime > between 500,000 and 50,000 with the propositional language tipping point > happening by 50,000 and that is the game changer that essentially adds a > second mind (i.e., Mind3 and the Culture Person plane) to our primate mind, > resulting in a qualitative shift (because Cultural and technological > evolution then spin us out of the normal evolutionary balance and we spread > like a virus across the planet). > > > Best, > Gregg > > > > *From:* tree of knowledge system discussion < > [log in to unmask]> *On Behalf Of *easalien > *Sent:* Saturday, October 17, 2020 3:51 PM > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Subject:* Re: Sensemaking Episodes on the Stoa > > > > *CAUTION: *This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click links > or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is > safe. > ------------------------------ > > Hey Gregg, > > > > Thanks for the response. It explains a great deal. > > > > 1. Language: Will have to learn more about the unified theory. I agree > language is a leap in evolution. However, in this case, I’m reminded of > case-studies involving Koko, the gorilla who learned sign-language. It just > seems the more we learn, the less special we become. Maybe our capacity for > language is just naturally-selected niche-making behavior in post-agrarian > industrial society. Will check out the new video when it’s posted. > > > > 2. Joint Points: Glad for the clarification. These frames are useful > placeholders until a fuller theory is developed. However, based on > research, it appears these joint points correspond to similar physical > events, i.e. broken symmetries. That means it can be tested, or at least > described mathematically (to a point). The TOK may be able to answer these > fundamental questions. > > > > 3. There was a rapid run-through of the Garden I found difficult to > follow. However, appreciate the link you provided. Not suggesting errors in > the TOK, just that a slightly different perspective would provide a future > culmination point: the Singularity, time-like in nature similar to what > preceded the Big Bang. > > > > I agree with both you and Rob that a Fundamental Shift is taking place. > We’re reevaluating relationships with one another, society, environment, > and with ourselves. Grateful such a group exists where we can voice our > thoughts in these chaotic times. > > > > Sincerely, > > Eric > > > > On Saturday, October 17, 2020, Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx < > [log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Hi Eric, > > > > Thanks for these questions. > > > > 1. I believe the question was sparked by this article on “sensory > consciousness > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.popularmechanics.com_science_animals_a34165311_crows-2Dare-2Dself-2Daware-2Dlike-2Dhumans_&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=90tqcFu0rAbHrH21ysozyN43PK5L4ehpCdxt7D0DlGU&s=mEm7UUAJ5ROHJ2xoxwUallrjgaDduoX4IP7Ok7d9Y7o&e=>” > in crows and evidence that they know that recognize an experience (i.e., > with training, they can have conscious access to their subjective > experience). It was a good article and an interesting experiment. It offers > very strong evidence for subjective experience in crows. I would have been > amazed if crows did not have subjective experience. Indeed, I believe it is > likely subjective experience may go all the way “down” to insects. Here is > a book on the evolution of sensory consciousness. > > > > 1a. Sensory consciousness is what I call “experiential consciousness” and > corresponds to Mind2 in the language of the unified theory. That is > different than Mind3, which emerges as a function of language in an > explicitly aware intersubjective environment that uses propositions and > requires individuals to give accounts for their action. From a ToK/UTOK > vantage point, it is CRUCIAL to differentiate sensory/experiential > consciousness from linguistically mediated self-consciousness. Bottom line > is that we share in a largely continuous fashion experiential/sensory > consciousness with many animals, but only humans are persons that have the > fully developed capacity for self-conscious narration. The talk I gave this > past week at the Stoa was on JUST and what makes human consciousness so > different. I encourage you to check that out when it is posted. > > > > 1. The joint points are frames of understanding. No joint point can be > considered to be complete. Quantum mechanics, general relativity and the > Big Bang form the first Energy-to-Matter joint point. It is framed but not > solved. Likewise, natural selection, genetics and cell (including > epigenetic physiological developmental considerations) FRAME the > evolutionary synthesis, but it is not complete. Behavioral Investment > Theory frames the Life-to-Mind joint point that links behavioral selection, > neurocomputation and whole brain activity, but it is not a complete > understanding (still many mysteries about sentience, for example). JUST/JH > frames the Mind-to-Culture joint point and boxes in language, justification > processes, human self-consciousness and the evolution of the Culture-Person > plane, but again many questions unanswered. > > > > 1. There have been many additions to the model. Its first publication > is the Tree of Knowledge System and the Theoretical Unification of > Psychology > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.gregghenriques.com_uploads_2_4_3_6_24368778_unifiedtheory.pdf&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=90tqcFu0rAbHrH21ysozyN43PK5L4ehpCdxt7D0DlGU&s=u5ujS6pU64yOrpWe7HkaTz7KA52g9NpomjqWfMSRTZk&e=>. > That specifies only the first three key ideas of what becomes the Eight > Key Ideas > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.psychologytoday.com_us_blog_theory-2Dknowledge_202010_eight-2Dkey-2Dideas&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=90tqcFu0rAbHrH21ysozyN43PK5L4ehpCdxt7D0DlGU&s=JAA5WX--TcREsDEw_I8wU93u-PGJ55-Kky3oHE9zq1E&e=> > that make up the Unified Theory of Knowledge. The Garden > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.unifiedtheoryofknowledge.org_content_unified-2Dtheory-2Das-2Da-2Dgarden&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=90tqcFu0rAbHrH21ysozyN43PK5L4ehpCdxt7D0DlGU&s=IF1tVBUWlBVgJFjpaS6rTk2F1pZDMXlT_Qo_SLLsLm0&e=>—which > represents the full system--has even more elements to it. There have been > minor revisions, such as the fact that what I used to call the > “Justification Hypothesis” is now Justification Systems Theory. > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.psychologytoday.com_us_blog_theory-2Dknowledge_201812_the-2Djh-2Djust-2Dwhy-2Dname-2Dchange-2Dis-2Djustified&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=90tqcFu0rAbHrH21ysozyN43PK5L4ehpCdxt7D0DlGU&s=hWE-LKjuuHXJy0oKAbm2veI2zPB2mSI1naaLHkuoO9c&e=> > I have not found many errors in the original formulation. Mostly > adjustments to accommodate and assimilate and integrate more knowledge. > > > > 3a. Note that the ToK/UTOK by no means says the progression is inevitable. > If we blow ourselves up tomorrow with a nuclear holocaust, all you do is > remove the Culture and most of the Mind layers (i.e., assuming that all > people and most animals go extinct following a nuclear Armageddon…maybe the > cockroaches would find a path). Death is when the complexity bubbles pop. > Thus, when I die, my Life-Mind-Culture systems of complex adaptation “pop” > and what remains is my body operating at the Matter dimension. > > > > 3b. The 5th joint point is the way I describe the current situation we > find ourselves in. There are needed developments in both our knowledge > systems and how we conceive of our identities and how we raise our > children. I love Rob’s Fundamental Shift > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.popularmechanics.com_science_animals_a34165311_crows-2Dare-2Dself-2Daware-2Dlike-2Dhumans_&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=90tqcFu0rAbHrH21ysozyN43PK5L4ehpCdxt7D0DlGU&s=mEm7UUAJ5ROHJ2xoxwUallrjgaDduoX4IP7Ok7d9Y7o&e=> > because he points to many ways of being that fall under what I call a > “Meta-Cultural Consciousness” kind of awakening. We need to put our Energy > into that direction, which yields the fun “equation” of E=>MC2 > > > > Best, > Gregg > > > > *From:* tree of knowledge system discussion < > [log in to unmask]> *On Behalf Of *easalien > *Sent:* Friday, October 16, 2020 12:04 PM > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Subject:* TOK: Sensemaking Episodes on the Stoa > > > > *CAUTION: *This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click links > or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is > safe. > ------------------------------ > > Hey Gregg, > > > > Great presentation. As a new student of the TOK, was wondering if you > could help clarify some questions I was having: > > > > 1. Animal Consciousness: One participant mentioned an article concerning > consciousness in crows. Was wondering if you considered higher-order > functions in human beings a difference in degree or a difference in kind. > > > > 2. Joint Points: As major unresolved problems in physical/behavioral > sciences, do these joint points represent similar processes? Does the TOK > potentially answer these questions or is that left to respective experts? > Also, are the solutions important to fully understanding the TOK? > > > > 3. Have there been any revisions/additions to the model since it was first > published? The hierarchical nature implies evolution towards higher-order > processes, but is there a point at which it terminates, e.g. social > stagnation, death, etc.? Had an insightful conversation with Rob, and > viewing the TOK from “above” allows the model to culminate at its > source—completing the system. Wondering your thoughts on this > interpretation. > > > > Hope to hear from you. Appreciate your insight on the matter. > > > > Eric > > On Wednesday, October 14, 2020, Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx < > [log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Hi TOK Folks, > > Here is the link to my first session on the Stoa: > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtube.com_watch-3Fv-3DcPiSjWIY-5FmE&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=cG4NApb2N7zogVkQwrIlMMfDQh2SJ3KfeeI4g9HTDbk&s=oEVnjn8PRxygy5n_poBDI8aZ138IOVNz9_8TfeMhNP4&e= > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtube.com_watch-3Fv-3DcPiSjWIY-5FmE&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=YEbSDW8BR4IAPrlVDZSaI6XBGvS09Se7O92wUtN0rJo&s=gvxGccgcZcQt2xUHCC-m7kI9CzJS9Nvvvm6ESb98cP8&e=> > > > > I am up again tomorrow at 2:00 pm. It is on Justification Systems Theory. > I did a run through which I can share here for folks who are interested, > but won’t make the live show: > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__drive.google.com_file_d_1XIP8swR1lf2Ug2OxDEkJHAT7BK859ZUI_view-3Fusp-3Dsharing&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=cG4NApb2N7zogVkQwrIlMMfDQh2SJ3KfeeI4g9HTDbk&s=XVqG9Xe3UYBdHF2EUU-8XJ4_ixvqree1apPDwd9wyzU&e= > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__drive.google.com_file_d_1XIP8swR1lf2Ug2OxDEkJHAT7BK859ZUI_view-3Fusp-3Dsharing&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=YEbSDW8BR4IAPrlVDZSaI6XBGvS09Se7O92wUtN0rJo&s=1K4KOG6N3_MqLuv417rRqsx52GAc34f_IBeC6K4y0u0&e=> > > > > Best, > Gregg > > > > ___________________________________________ > > Gregg Henriques, Ph.D. > Professor > Department of Graduate Psychology > 216 Johnston Hall > MSC 7401 > James Madison University > Harrisonburg, VA 22807 > (540) 568-7857 (phone) > (540) 568-4747 (fax) > > > *Be that which enhances dignity and well-being with integrity.* > > Check out the Unified Theory Of Knowledge homepage at: > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.unifiedtheoryofknowledge.org_&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=cG4NApb2N7zogVkQwrIlMMfDQh2SJ3KfeeI4g9HTDbk&s=avLQ4gwQFGIDpRJtgaNsjeShTmPcVxafaNyQ_bJIoHE&e= > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.unifiedtheoryofknowledge.org_&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=YEbSDW8BR4IAPrlVDZSaI6XBGvS09Se7O92wUtN0rJo&s=lDW2t4FdY0SIHmIWp5THgwxzTQI-aiI55oehGmhxXwY&e=> > > > > ############################ > > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: > mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the > following link: > http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 > > ############################ > > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: > mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the > following link: > http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 > > ############################ > > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: > mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the > following link: > http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 > > ############################ > > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: > mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the > following link: > http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 > ############################ > > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: > mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the > following link: > http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 > ############################ > > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: > mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the > following link: > http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 > ############################ To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1