I agree that the science/technology merger is going to be profound. Indeed, the whole point of the 5th joint point as framed by the ToK is both that the digital/virtual world will become fused with virtually every aspects of our existence, much in the same way that we are primates who talk, such that talking adds a qualitative shift from the animal into human person Cultural mentation (i.e., Mind3).
The power is also the danger, as my son, who just did an essay for his college English class on Frankenstein is now clear about. That is why Lene’s point is so key. We need a philosophical stance that has a wisdom orientation (i.e., a meta-reflective stance, grounded in foundational values, oriented toward valued future states), to guide us through the horizon of the 5th joint point. Else Mary Shelley will be teaching us a lesson again.
G
From: tree of knowledge system discussion <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Lene Rachel Andersen - Nordic Bildung
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2020 3:58 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: ToK How would science know where to stop?
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I think you have to distinguish between science (exploration) and technology (creation) and what we choose to with it; philosophy (structured thinking) can help us here.
/ Lene
On 17-12-2020 01:19, James Lyons-Weiler wrote:
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Great question. Fast-forward our civilization with technology by 1,000 years - whatever that means for you.
Since we will likely create things new to the universe with unknown properties - including emergent properties -
the merger of "science and technology" will certainly be continued. But science itself will continue forever because
we have already shown many times over that we are capable of creating things and things that interact in ways that
are vastly beyond our immediate comprehension. The toxic soup we have made of the biosphere is a great example.
Hyper-intelligent AI aside, we will likely move increasingly toward prediction science, less pattern detection and less
descriptive science, and getting down (and up) into mechanistic models that are increasingly improved in their ability to
predict.
However, my transcendental prediction model does not require a human understanding -it dispenses with whether
we need to understand why it works. In fact, it can generate an infinite number of prediction models that are equally accurate -
and if the data can predict accurately, they all will be accurate.
I am convinced that our understanding and comprehension will advance exponentially when we move beyond the assumption that the
ability to discriminate A OR B is far less useful than understanding A AND B.
On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 6:49 PM Leland Beaumont <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
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ToK Folk,
Advocates of thinking scientifically<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikiversity.org_wiki_Thinking-5FScientifically&d=DwMFAg&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=74gLbhHWWpBB89jax-AjaHoGSIHQepgR6tYh9zeZxzE&s=HiEAuNqgcMMesGu5zeQnyfFgS3tNO-ZcCms6P4kghXw&e=> are often admonished that science may be OK for scientists, but has strict limits. This warning is often expressed by theists as “science and religion do not overlap.” Dualists claim that the mind is not formed of matter and energy but of something else. Others claim that subjective experience, conscious experience, or the complexities of society cannot be analyzed using scientific thinking. Various social scientists may claim that their disciplines lie outside of science. Would it be fair for me suggest that proponents of the enlightenment gap claim that thinking scientifically cannot solve world problems?
I propose that those who make such claims bear the burden of proving those claims. Specifically, those who claim specific limits on the realm of thinking scientifically must answer the question:
How would science know when and where to stop being relevant?
Because I acknowledge that we continue to face grand challenges<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikiversity.org_wiki_Grand-5FChallenges&d=DwMFAg&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=74gLbhHWWpBB89jax-AjaHoGSIHQepgR6tYh9zeZxzE&s=AUsHs_IGhGuNsV294SQv_jKgZ6hRk89vmZbgP2-PyzA&e=> that persist and seem resistant to solutions, I am obligated to offer an alternative hypothesis. I propose that science is working its way up from physics through chemistry, geology, meteorology, and biology into medicine, neuroscience, various branches of psychology, sociology, economics, ethics, and eventually government<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lelandbeaumont.medium.com_how-2Dare-2Dwe-2Ddoing-2Db89940268fec&d=DwMFAg&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=74gLbhHWWpBB89jax-AjaHoGSIHQepgR6tYh9zeZxzE&s=cBqCx25LJREAj1gux_e7JrUBwyTL01AMKo7S4O8RL7I&e=>. Prolonged searches for elan vital<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikipedia.org_wiki_-25C3-2589lan-5Fvital&d=DwMFAg&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=74gLbhHWWpBB89jax-AjaHoGSIHQepgR6tYh9zeZxzE&s=IwD_-GrV19YzoaE8tk1KldlzEBG1ocEpxnOD1JOWYo8&e=>, caloric<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikipedia.org_wiki_Caloric-5Ftheory&d=DwMFAg&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=74gLbhHWWpBB89jax-AjaHoGSIHQepgR6tYh9zeZxzE&s=Th3dGEC9zFbyiHn-bx_ivSfyMK6KQp9gDLxooBQq3ig&e=>, luminiferous ether<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikipedia.org_wiki_Luminiferous-5Faether&d=DwMFAg&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=74gLbhHWWpBB89jax-AjaHoGSIHQepgR6tYh9zeZxzE&s=CXNcgHKNGdWRBF7bTCwcEG_VR-SUNzFQ5-UFeHkWuHs&e=>, and phlogiston<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikipedia.org_wiki_Phlogiston-5Ftheory&d=DwMFAg&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=74gLbhHWWpBB89jax-AjaHoGSIHQepgR6tYh9zeZxzE&s=kE0L6jNHNDevGWwh0wdfYRyY1RBUtCcsa7EC81kGjcA&e=> have brought us to null results and new insights. I advocate that we continue to seek real good, regardless of the discipline, or rate of progress.
Enjoy the holidays.
Respectfully,
Lee Beaumont
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Lene Rachel Andersen
Futurist, economist, author & keynote speaker
Co-founder of Nordic Bildung and the European Bildung Network
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