*Relational hug* back your way, Gregg [image: Screen Shot 2021-04-14 at 3.29.19 PM.png] Integrating Tomasello's points with the UTOK, the above points/abilities would result from the development of human justification mechanisms. A big moment in favor of UTOK's conceptualization of consciousness, and what distinguishes us from other primates, was when Dr. Joseph Michalski informally asked Jane Goodall at a conference if she noticed apes justifying their actions to others, and she allegedly reported that no, she never saw such behavior. =Chance On Wed, Apr 14, 2021 at 3:04 PM Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx < [log in to unmask]> wrote: > Yes. > > > > And we can see in the work of folks like Michael Tomasello who does work > on the human capacity for shared attention and intention > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikipedia.org_wiki_Michael-5FTomasello&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ik5R0THfqHRfEwRrAcxrE8nMZbRmt3Wf_zUroo5QomI&s=ikgNBiYkohaX6vnqtna-lCD4r7XAQLviVilzY9KMvq4&e= > the capacity for > intersubjectivity in hominids prior to language. So, this is the capacity > to gesture, point, mimic, engage in much more cooperative goal oriented > activity like hunting. A classic example is young kids will follow where an > adult is pointing. They track the eye movements and intuit the intention > and follow the perspective. Tomasello calls it the capacity to create “we” > space that is prior to language and set the stage for it...and then of > course, takes off when the Mind3ab feedback loop comes on line, the > dynamics of which are, of course, mapped by JUST. > > > > The cool thing about all of this is that it gives us a much clearer, > concrete way to talk about the mental domains and how they interface. > > > > Big relational hug 😊, > > G > > > > *From:* tree of knowledge system discussion < > [log in to unmask]> *On Behalf Of *Chance McDermott > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 14, 2021 3:50 PM > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Subject:* Re: TOK Three Meanings of Consciousness > > > > *CAUTION: *This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click links > or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is > safe. > ------------------------------ > > Thank you, Gregg, I'm enjoying conversing in this system: > > > > > > ...If I'm following: Mind2b houses the sociometer that tracks our > mammalian-primate relational dynamics, which can be explicitly visualized > or comprehended in Mind3a through internalization of a justification tool > like the Influence Matrix, and then can be explicitly verbalized, if so > desired, using Mind3b, which we are doing now? > > > > =Chance > > > > On Wed, Apr 14, 2021 at 2:25 PM Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx < > [log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Yes, exactly! Love to see this reply. > > > > And, if you have not already sensed, there is the question of the > “implicit intersubjective” which nicely gives rise to the idea of a > “Mind2b” space, which I depict in this variant of the Map of Mind diagram: > > > > Best, > > G > > > > *From:* tree of knowledge system discussion < > [log in to unmask]> *On Behalf Of *Chance McDermott > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 14, 2021 2:36 PM > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Subject:* Re: TOK Three Meanings of Consciousness > > > > *CAUTION: *This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click links > or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is > safe. > ------------------------------ > > Gregg, > > > > In response to your prompt about Mind3b, *yes*, I can see how we are > operating in that space as we type to one another here. > > > > Would the speed of my typing, and my other nonverbal, observable > expressions and movements be considered a feature of Mind1b? > > > > =Chance > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 14, 2021 at 12:49 PM Brent Allsop <[log in to unmask]> > wrote: > > *CAUTION: *This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click links > or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is > safe. > ------------------------------ > > Hi Nik, > > > > OK, that is great that you are distinguishing between the map and the > territory, my mistake. > > > > On Wed, Apr 14, 2021 at 6:11 AM Nicholas Lattanzio <[log in to unmask]> > wrote: > > These terms of experience, consciousness, awareness, etc, I feel are > becoming a bit conflated too. Its very nuanced subject matter where we all > seem to draw lines in the sand in different places and compare our way to > others based on how we drew our lines. Of course true critique must come > from within the camp itself. > > > > I couldn't have said it better, myself. That is one of the key ideas at > Canonizer, and how to get around 'fake news' which everyone can claim of > anything these days, from within their own camp. What you need to do is be > critical of a camp, from within that camp, using their terminology, their > facts, there trusted experts. If you are using THEIR trusted canonizer > algorithm, and a particular fact has 90% consensus of their trusted > experts, they can no longer claim it is 'fake news'. > > > > Let me see if I can illustrate the issue I still have with what you are > saying. The point of the minimally conscious thermostat is to illustrate > some things. It only has two pixels of knowledge, each of which can have > either a redness or greenness quality. Such is not 'self-aware' since > there is nothing representing knowledge of the self, being aware of the two > pixels. It is 'conscious' just not 'self Consonus'. For every piece of > information, we are aware of, that knowledge must be something. And > knowledge of anything else can be added, including knowledge of both the > front and back of a face, and so on. Data can describe all the text on a > page, without any information about the page on which it may be written. > But information about the page, itself, and how much blank space it has, > and so on, can be added to the text data. We could engineer a system to > have knowledge of someone else's consciousness (Either all or a part of > it), without knowledge of themself bound into it. Sometimes things like > this occur when tripping with psychedelics. > > > > Recursion is just a powerful way to describe certain kinds of > information. The same information can also be enumerated in a long table, > without recursion. But in ALL cases, if you know something, that knowledge > must be something. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ############################ > > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: > mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the > following link: > http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 > > ############################ > > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: > mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the > following link: > http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 > > ############################ > > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: > mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the > following link: > http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 > > ############################ > > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: > mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the > following link: > http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 > ############################ > > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: > mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the > following link: > http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 > ############################ To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1