Brent, This is how I perceive it: [image: image.png] Regards Truly yours Deepak Loomba Chairman De Core Nanosemiconductors Ltd. <[log in to unmask]> On Sun, Apr 4, 2021 at 4:26 PM Deepak Loomba <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > Brent, 'effect' is infact a better word than the one you are meaning, > which is 'representation'. As effect allows for a physical connect between > an event and it's representation inside. Representation without effect > would grant bats the power of imagination of which I am not sure. > > I understand your concept, but understanding what Gregg is advocating > through his ToK theory, both of you are loggerheads foundationally, though > there could be some concurring components. > > Ty > DL > > On Sat, Apr 3, 2021, 7:11 AM Brent Allsop <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > >> *CAUTION: *This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click links >> or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is >> safe. >> ------------------------------ >> Thanks Deepak. It helps me to hear other people describe what I often >> struggle to describe. Just a few comments about the way you are describing >> it. It is problematic to define it as an "effect" that is a reaction to >> specific wavelengths of light. It is critical to realize that you could >> engineer a bat, to represent echolocated bugs with your redness quality. >> If that was the case, not only would that redness not be an 'effect' >> reaction to light (it would be an effect reaction to echolocated sound) but >> you would then know what it is like, at least partially, to be that bat. >> And in that case, saturation would likely not be a factor, as it would just >> be a particular saturation of red that you can experience. >> >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 2, 2021 at 2:58 PM Deepak Loomba <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >> >>> *CAUTION: *This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click >>> links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the >>> content is safe. >>> ------------------------------ >>> See inside the trail mail text... Helping you understand Brent's view to >>> best of my knowledge. >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 2, 2021, 4:16 PM Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx < >>> [log in to unmask]> wrote: >>> >>>> Sounds good. Looking forward to exploring this. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I saw those a while back when you shared them. I quickly got the point >>>> about the difference between *red* in the world (i.e., electromagnetic >>>> radiation) and *redness* in qualia (subjective conscious experience). >>>> The difference basically parallels the move made by modern empirical >>>> natural science to go to a language grounded in third person quantitative >>>> away from first person qualitative. What I did not get was the model that >>>> was being proposed regarding the mechanism by which neurobiological >>>> activity actually produces *the experienced quality of redness.* >>>> >>> DL: Since redness is an 'effect' that is a reaction produced to a >>> specific wavelength of light. Let's assume that it is caused by a material >>> X in the nervous system that produces the redness. So the more this >>> material the more is the redness with a point of saturation. Therefore, >>> redness could be interpreted quantitatively as the amount of a chemical X >>> or a physical effect Y or a number of nerves Z in a special area of brain >>> cause the redness. And this redness is quantified reaction in our mind to >>> phenomena happening outside and thus being a kind of projection or >>> simulation in one's mind to actions happening elsewhere and can be >>> identified. >>> >>>> This is the “how and why” combination that makes up the ontological >>>> explanatory gap. There were some interesting suggestions and possibilities >>>> that might frame this, but that is different than having an answer. But >>>> maybe I missed something or maybe it was an example of what an answer might >>>> look like. I do agree there were some cool frames on it. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Via the Map of Mind1,2,3 the UTOK gives a clear descriptive >>>> metaphysical system. For example, Chalmers differentiates the hard problem >>>> from the easy problems of consciousness. The Map of Mind is a descriptive >>>> metaphysical system that frames this ontologically. That is, Mind1 >>>> represents a neurocognitive (Mind1a) functionalist account of mental >>>> behavior (Mind1b). This corresponds to Chalmers’ talk of the easy problems, >>>> but it is now framed ontologically instead of his epistemological point. >>>> Mind2 is the domain of the hard problem, which is the subjective conscious >>>> experience of being. The account given by the UTOK is functional, >>>> phylogenetic, and ontogenetic and integrative (especially now that it syncs >>>> up with John Vervaeke’s cognitive account via recursive relevance >>>> realization). However, it does not answer the “here-and-now” >>>> neurobiological engineering mechanism problem that is the explanatory gap. >>>> Put in straight forward terms, I don’t think we have any idea how to build >>>> something that has subjective conscious experience. We only know the >>>> functional neurobehavioral correlates. This is a lot, but there is still a >>>> hard problem to be solved. It is also crucial to note that , via JUST, the >>>> UTOK round out the picture by adding Mind3. Mind3a being private narration >>>> and Mind3b being public. This boxes in Mind2, and the UTOK also ties all >>>> the domains together via informational interface. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* tree of knowledge system discussion < >>>> [log in to unmask]> *On Behalf Of *Brent Allsop >>>> *Sent:* Thursday, April 1, 2021 3:07 PM >>>> *To:* [log in to unmask] >>>> *Subject:* Re: TOK: Open Discussion on the Nature of Consciousness >>>> tomorrow at 1:00 pm EST >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *CAUTION: *This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click >>>> links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the >>>> content is safe. >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Looking forward to it! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Just FYI, Rather than have me talk about the significant theoretical >>>> consensus we've been able to build and track around Representational >>>> Qualia Theory >>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__canonizer.com_topic_88-2DTheories-2Dof-2DConsciousness_6-2DRepresentational-2DQualia&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=HDzioO6r1_B_2U7-KCqnY7d2BiOUOtyg78G2H2c0zLU&s=pWgWWhlvnpC0EW4OzwkYXgUSYL3z0pJ8eJnjEgfVqXk&e=> including >>>> tracking any competing theories, during this, it would be way better for >>>> people to just check out our work in progress animated video on this: "Consciousness, >>>> Not a Hard Problem, Just a Color Problem >>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__canonizer.com_videos_consciousness_&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=HDzioO6r1_B_2U7-KCqnY7d2BiOUOtyg78G2H2c0zLU&s=OOHdseYM73k8DcBnqzWc-9H7CS_EL3NHc888w85ISGs&e=> >>>> ." >>>> >>>> We're working on an important additional "Computational Binding" >>>> chapter which isn't completed yet, so I may talk a bit about what is >>>> in that, and how that fits into a definition of consciousness, to get >>>> things started. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Looking forward to better understanding how all this fits in with the >>>> TOK and such. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Apr 1, 2021 at 6:59 AM Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx < >>>> [log in to unmask]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi All, >>>> >>>> This is just a reminder that tomorrow at 1:00 pm EST, Brent Allsop >>>> and I will be having an open dialogue about the hard problem of >>>> consciousness from our various perspectives. I will send a zoom link to the >>>> list serve about 5 minutes prior and anyone who is interested may join us. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Gregg >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ___________________________________________ >>>> >>>> Gregg Henriques, Ph.D. >>>> Professor >>>> Department of Graduate Psychology >>>> 216 Johnston Hall >>>> MSC 7401 >>>> James Madison University >>>> Harrisonburg, VA 22807 >>>> (540) 568-7857 (phone) >>>> (540) 568-4747 (fax) >>>> >>>> >>>> *Be that which enhances dignity and well-being with integrity.* >>>> >>>> Check out the Unified Theory Of Knowledge homepage at: >>>> >>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.unifiedtheoryofknowledge.org_&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=bOmycrOuE211OnJ-RqoVKzsuuH19jo_ZYo6chONxzS0&s=7FNtTQK2aPOeVwd_YH6V-N0yEIUFbbv2h8fi-SL_Nm0&e= >>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.unifiedtheoryofknowledge.org_&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=HDzioO6r1_B_2U7-KCqnY7d2BiOUOtyg78G2H2c0zLU&s=F-f60AEs6WxY0qduxxttlvcsLpilABbaHZQrQV847Sw&e=> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ############################ >>>> >>>> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: >>>> mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the >>>> following link: >>>> http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 >>>> >>>> ############################ >>>> >>>> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: >>>> mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the >>>> following link: >>>> http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 >>>> ############################ >>>> >>>> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: >>>> mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the >>>> following link: >>>> http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 >>>> >>> ############################ >>> >>> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: >>> mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the >>> following link: >>> http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 >>> >> ############################ >> >> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: >> mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the >> following link: >> http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 >> > ############################ To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1