From: tree of knowledge system discussion <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of James Gien Wong
Sent: Monday, April 19, 2021 10:29 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Toy Model of the 5th Joint Point

....although I wouldn't necessarily support two headed human experiments! 

Gien,

 

  Thanks for this Ted Talk on The Electrical Blueprints that Orchestrate Life. This offered a great overview of what I would call “biosemiotics” or “bio-epistemics” or “bio-cognition” or “bio-intelligence”. It shows just how crucial the dimension of life is to mind and how much complex adaptive design is present at the “ground” out of which Mind emerges.

 

  Also, we take this to remind us that the physical ground of being itself is “Energy-Information,” (rather than mechanical matter in motion), which gives a much cleaner frame for seeing the alignment from the ground floor of behavior up into these dimensions/levels.

 

Cool video!

 

Best,
Gregg

 

From: tree of knowledge system discussion <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of James Gien Wong
Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2021 5:33 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Toy Model of the 5th Joint Point

 

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Will respond more completely tomorrow, Jamie. Late here in Cape Town.

 

But wanted to also post this research update of Michael Levin. 

 

Gregg,

 

What are implications of bioelectrical signalling for intelligence and ToK?

 

https://youtu.be/XheAMrS8Q1c

 

 

On Sun, 18 Apr 2021 at 21:19, Jamie D <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

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@James Wong:

I read your response twice.

 

There is a lot to unpack. How long have you been working on your version? (I'm not worried because the principle has countless applications)

 

In this reply I'll explain why the singularity described by futurists really depends on this concept you and I have grasped. (The concept also being based on the most long term reliable trend in cosmic evolution: integrated possibility, complexity, diversity?)

 

*also, your "Linguistic atoms" really cought my ear, as a major crutch with my web prototype is isolating the most practical elements of language to integrate public expressions into a singular mental representation of society (and/or any group) that anyone can engage with (that, brilliantly, and although "singular", simultaneously preserves multiplicity, which is part of why it's so perfect)

.

 ..but my prototype is suuuper simple, ultra basic...just to get experimental proof from a few users, described at the bottom of this reply.

.........

 

Here are the following conceptions of the Singularity I've heard:

 

1) accelerating change (which change specifically?)

2) event horizon (always the case)

3) intelligence explosion (most think of some single machine that enhances all we value....no).

Then, 4) Kevin Kelly's "one machine" back in the day came closest imo.

 

These don't cut it. They blow people's mind's with no practice direction to go, like getting high or something.

 

It's clear that, as the density of web content becomes unmanageable, demand will spurn means of integrating our collective intelligence so we can more rapidly triangulate our interests. And it does seem like the pressures of confined space of various types, with the expansion of complexity, lead to unity, which is how each joint point in Gregg's ToK got made.

 

 

Semantic web has done this already. I don't know what you mean by linguistic atoms, but I'm guessing it's similar to my chopping up sentences into types, units, sub-units, and building an AI for organizing and integrating them into groups, then slapping on applications that meet economic demand (ei: people will use it).

 

Personally, I don't like political culture, I don't like how ego and profit get in the way of every industry, and I'm encouraged by the opportunity presented by the increasing humiliation of such authorities. (But there is a case for experts, usually technicians).

 

I look at things clearly and humbly, and do that long enough and you'll sound arrogant by the evolution you've gone through. (Data says overeducated youth don't fare well statistically)

 

How many therapists like learning psychology from their patients in a back and forth, exciting dialogue? Only one in my experience. 

 

Doctors tend to be more curious about novel things, but they are way overworked.

(Also low social status is likely the primary underlying cause of most health problems anyway, and I can't imagine that treadmill stopping without also losing our primary motive in life (or, mostly the west), which is why I say ego is all.)

 

More detailed description of my project:

 

Conceptually and inventively, your work sounds very much along the same lines as what I'm trying to accomplish, although I'm going for a very simple website prototype for, say, 10 people to each input 10 tweet-like expressions, making a database of 100 expressions.

 

The front end will be a simple dashboard-list of these "tweets".

 

Each user will then identify with whichever other tweets they identify with, each building a personal memeplex, and subsequently the group's as well. 

 

Each person can look into the mind of the group.

 

Each "meme" or expression will be it's own tribe.

 

Some memes will be synonymous, as in "I'm atheist" and "I believe there is no God", and Google has free software I can use to calibrate a "synonym percentage" to clump synonymous statements into single groups.

 

My prototype is so small that I needn't worry about linguistics...but for large scale....its the crutch.

 

And me...I'm only a basic web developer, but I'm confident I'll have this done by August.

 

Jamie

 

 

 

 

On Sun, Apr 18, 2021, 6:07 AM Nicholas Lattanzio <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

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Jamie,

 

Really interesting project here. I'd just like to respond to your point towards the end about this sort of evolutionary process being both singular and simultaneous collective. This is exactly the nature of what I call a process ontology, similar to Buckminster Fuller's analogy of the the universe unfolding as a knot traveling down a rope made of segments of different material (e.g., hemp, velvet, cotton, satin, etc.). As the knot travels down the rope, it's "pattern" of the actual knot remains the same while its physical composition may change. The difference in my ontological process is that it is evolutionary, so that each segment of material is of a higher degree of complexity (i.e., the ToK). The process is the thing itself. The increasing complexification as I see it works to diversify existence, so since this is a linear model with a cyclical model of time (cyclical does not truly even capture it it goes everywhere), as diversification and complexity increase they will hit a point at which they are so stratified by their place on the evolutionary rope that they will themselves become the singularity that is tuen futher diversified. This is merwly a part becoming a whole to either parts, but each time this happens its is its on scale of a singularity or "big bang" in that proximal zones are breeched and novelty is introduced and then exhausted. An endless cycle of cycling in as many cycle as we possibly can. This is of course simplified but I hope you see my stress on the process itself being the intogocal referent.

 

I used Fuller's analogy because he shares the ai view that you discuss, or at least similarly. For he talked about the world becoming culturally integrated in this sense (a one town world). Alan Watts provides a nice little bridge that highlights these points.

 

https://youtu.be/3_dn4a0Tkkw

 

 

 

Regards,

Nicholas G. Lattanzio, Psy.D.

 

On Sun, Apr 18, 2021, 7:42 AM Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Cool discussions!

 

Interesting Parallel here: On Friday I had a discussion about a podcast I am going to do with Owen Cox and Daniel Fraga who run the Techno-Social Podcast. We are going to talk about the “singularity” and see what threads we might pull on from technology/digital/artificial intelligence (here is the Wiki entry for this concept), social movements and collective awareness (Max Borders did a book on this), the “2028” timeline found by Korotayev, and the knowledge to wisdom 5^th joint point frame afforded by ToK/UTOK.

 

I posit that the Tree, the iQuad Coin and the Garden afford some useful concepts for framing the singularity. The Tree provides the frame for a coherent naturalistic scientific ontology. The coin represents both the idiosyncratic individual and his/her connection to Humanity writ large. And the Garden represents the mytho-poetic ethical intersubjective “we”. Connecting this knowledge/wisdom architecture with technology and social movements is definitely a powerful vision.

 

Thanks for sharing.

 

Best,
Gregg

 

 

From: tree of knowledge system discussion <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of James Gien Wong
Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2021 2:11 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Toy Model of the 5th Joint Point

 

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@Jamie,

 

Really interesting and coincidental!  I’ve been working on designing a similar system architecture for an open knowledge commons for humanity (OKCH) based on linguistic atoms. The same system can be used for both an open source journal of journals, as well as an anytime pedagogic system treating all students as lifetime learners. I’m currently outlining a skeleton for a position paper on the system architecture to help consolidate the diversity of ideas required to build such a system. It needs to be pursued as a commons project that belongs to humanity and not controlled by corporate entities, hence I’m preparing it to present to the Peer to Peer Foundation.

 

It leverages the important idea of aspectualization, which John and Gregg introduced into my own salience landscape through their dialogues. As a prototype, I was thinking of presenting all the different strands of ideas discussed in this group. In this way, different clusters of ideas appear in different parts of 3d linguistic space. The idea is that our representation of reality is a gestalt that is the sum of our collective intelligence and the linguistic representation via knowledge graphs can be aspectualized by looking from different perspectives at the total knowledge gestalt. I plan to represent the book I am currently writing in this new media format. My citations will simply directly connect to other complete works of knowledge that are represented within the same knowledge graph gestalt. For instance, I will cite Gregg and John’s work so i will seek permission to encode their books and papers into the knowledge graph. The more related,  independent research articles, papers and books it can represent, the richer the entangled knowledge graph and the more effortless a user can understand and paint a complete picture of reality.

 

Currently, all knowledge thatis digitised is represented in binary code which is devoid of knowledge relationships. In this way, digital technology is being used as a fascimile for text written in books and on paper. Just as text written on paper becomes fixed, digital information displays the same rigidity. High dimensionality knowledge graphs will unlock the disruptive potential of digital technology to create a quantum leap in knowledge representation. 

 

This cannot be done with current generation of technology however, due to the permutation explosion problem that associated with linguistic representation of such vast amounts of information. That’s why next generation technologies must be explored to achieve it.

 

I see the work done in this group as belonging to half the important work for bottom up, rapid whole system change relating to human inner transformation (HIT). The other important work is the social outer transformation (SOT) via implementing metrics for measuring planetary boundaries at a practical scale so that citizens in cities and communities can rebuild civilization at a local level, guided by local, downscaled metrics that give them meaningful targets to aim towards. So my other work is engaged with planetary scientists to develop those metrics, and with other groups working on strategic on-the-ground strategies to build local, circular economies such as industrial hemp supply chsins that can create entire circular supply chains. However, an OKCH is a critical component to act as a framework for both HIT and SET. Given that we have about 5 to 10 years to avoid 1.5 deg c mean global temp, a proxy metric for an entire gestalt of biospheric destruction, the work we need to do as a civilization is unprecedented, especially given the degree of collective ignorance that keeps us moving at a snails pace when we should be moving at supersonic speed.

 

On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 at 23:36, Jamie D <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

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Hey ToKers,

 

I'm working on a web prototype I hope to finish by August. It's a very basic version of a collective intelligence that integrates all user inputs into what I and my friends call "thought-demographics"...so like, "I drink Green Tea" would be a demographic, with a population of those who share the same expression....or any expression one might care to make.

 

The following is some of the theory behind it that still blows my mind every time I bother to look deeply into it.

 

Theoretic Limits of RealTalk.ai (not online yet)

(Hint: there’s no limit. The concept behind the prototype IS the Singularity, the big one, the one TOO BIG TO SEE. While the prototype RealTalk.ai is intended to utilize well-known aspects of social networks, the concept of integrating symbolic expressions to form a collective, interactive representation of society is boundless, inevitable, mindblowingly valuable, and stunningly powerful.)

 

*The closest thing I've found out there so far to the central concept is collaborative filtering, used for netflix recommendations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaborative_filtering

 

A similar concept will be used to further integrate society into collective intelligence.

 

• It is akin to the transition from kingdoms to democracies - harnessing greater collective input for greater social union. This time, everyone is president, ...at least somewhat...who knows?
• As you read this, try to think of a better way to protect the future from AI tyranny, autocracy, idiocracy, or any other existential threat to society.
• The principle will be the structure for entirely new economies and social systems, and the entire internet a stage or two from now.
• Ego and profit-motive are the causes of all problems in medicine, science, academia, ..everything. EGO IS ALL.Yet, we are still being domesticated by one-another, and the culture of egioc denial is dying, as our nature so obvious on the media. 
• The principle will radically augment the following industries and more:

• Utilizing crowd epidemiology - potentially curing all diseases.
• It will be the greatest social science database of all time. 
• It will replace the current political charade.
• Identity politics will be obliterated by egoic exhaustion and the clear-seeing of the hidden values of other groups in the safety of our homes.
• Once it gets a foothold, it will never end, but further integrate towards, and as, the Singularity...but not like it’s been conceived so far...

 

The concept:

 

RealTalk.ai is a prototype collective intelligence in the works, based on the inevitable principles of cultural evolution and the integration of broader human intelligence. 

While RealTalk.ai is merely a prototype, the concept is inevitable, and massive. 

 

image 2:

image 3

 

Each user will have their own set of endorsed or created expressions. 

 

The only risk of privacy is triangulation and estmate.

 

Users can research their society's values in depth. 

 

At least, small groups and companies can use this, but my prediction is that the general idea is a leap in the evolution of culture. 

 

Old news: Humans are cyborgs, and have been since our tool and symbol use began domesticating us.

 

New news: Every Human Mind is a kind of artificial intelligence already, as we design our minds...but who designs the mind? I contend each human baby is a kind of AI cultural engineer, a loop between the body-mind and surrounding culture, who cultivates an emergent Tree of Intellect in both the individual mind and the community. 

Just as culture is inherently technological, so it is with our minds. New words, concepts, and ways are continually invented, internalized. And, hungry for info, the mind, like an organism unto itself, endlessly seeks to copulate with novelty to give birth to some prestige-offering thought-baby:  a trend that will offer or further increase status, a long-life of glory.

 

The system of symbols in each human brain is an emergent Tree of Knowledge. Young children never know what they will learn or become, but as their Tree rises higher, they acquire a greater view of their landscape, their reality, whether they emphasize the physical, natural, or various social or other landscapes.

 

Intelligence is evolutionary, systemic and emergent, but also, I contend, essential to our very being, our presence. Intelligence is already infinite, analogue, and combined with increasingly definable stuff.  For it is that ineffable whatever, the “I-Am-ness”, that’s behind all the mappable aspects of mind, and it’s like a bottomless white hole. And it’s YOU.

 

*Personally, I’m confident the duality between the known / knowable and the unknown / unknowable will never end, yet the former will likely grow forever as it encroaches on the ladder, both infinite, but that’s too philosophical for this paper.

 

Now, about RealTalk.ai:

 

Imagine each person on the planet copied their mind/memeplex to the web, (as we are already, just not organized, NOT YET INTEGRATED, but soon to be...) such that every shared meme bridged any two or more people into a tribe or “thought-demographic”.

 

But first, some big-picture stuff on the evolution of culture and tech:

 

The most constant trend in cosmic evolution, including culture and technology…

 

 (other than the 2nd law of thermodynamics (entropy, or, according to the big picture, what I call the expansion of evolutionary possibilities) 

 

…..Is the accelerating integration of increasing complexity.

 

Just LOOK:

 

Earth was a molten rock…

...then hardly a biosphere, 

…then the cambrian explosion, 

...then early hominids, bands, tribes, kingdoms, parliaments, democracies... 

…industry, phone and airlines, then the web, social networks…

...each stage both more complex and integrated than before.

 

“Historically, we have seen an overarching trend towards the emergence of higher levels of social organization, from hunter-gatherer bands, to chiefdoms, city-states, nation states, and now multinational organizations, regional alliances, various international governance structures, and other aspects of globalization. Extrapolation of this trend points to the creation of a SINGLETON.” - Nick Bostrom.

 

SINGLETON -   a world order in which there is a single decision-making agency at the highest level. 

 

It’s in Nick Bostrom’s interest to shout wolf. I would if I were him, and believe it too as that too would be in my interest were I in his shoes. But from where I look, the inevitable singleton must be collective AND singular at the same time.

 

Journey into this concept and you will continually find more and more epiphanies, an endless resource for the practical dreamer. Your vision for the future will rise so high above your peers, you won’t speak their language anymore.

 

I’ve written hundreds of pages on this idea, and feel like I’ve barely scratched the surface. It’s TOO BIG TO SEE. Maybe some people have more trouble visualizing the endless, accelerating integration of complexity, let alone come up with a prototype that harnesses the principles.

 

One thing this has is moral power...but moral power is a popularity contest that only bends to the truth when it has to. 

--

-Jamie 

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Wishing you WELLth

Gien

Future Ancestor

 

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Wishing you WELLth

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Future Ancestor

 

Pull a thread here and you’ll find it’s attached to the rest of the world. - Nadeem Aslam

     

www.stopresetgo.org

https://www.earthwisecentre.org/tps

https://tippingpointfestival.org

https://www.earthwisecentre.org/music-for-change

www.futureliving.institute

[log in to unmask]

intl ph: (1) 206 973-3924

SA ph: (+27) 79 589 6173

skype: geniepop

 

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