Gien,

  This was inspiring and elegant. Thanks.

  

 FWIW, I sometimes add “reflection” to the Dharma trio of doing, being and becoming (here is Daniel S on Dharma inquiry framed this way)…

 

Best,
G

 

From: tree of knowledge system discussion <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of James Gien Wong
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2021 12:56 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: TOK Sadhguru on Universal and Subjective Engineering

 

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Reflections - an interesting word - our minds, human nature, reflecting nature.

The world enters “us” through our senses

But who are “we”?

 

My thoughts on nature reflect her

My dialogue with you reflects you

We are caught in a hall of endless mirrors 

Each of us, a jewel in Indra’s net of jewels

 

During my walk today, 

a “reflection” bubbled up and surfaced to consciousness

What Nick said about the Dao, 

or that which we are all in and always experiencing, when there are no words...

 

The outer sensed, objective reality

Is always accompanied by the inner, subjective experience

It is only language which cleaves them in half

And creates them as constructed, autonomous symbolic realities

So that greater whole which cannot be labeled, but which is nevertheless attempted

Is the union of the inner and the outer

The collaboration between the inner and the outer

We cannot speak of it, cannot even call it a synthesis

Since that would immediately imply they are separate

Something we cannot label experiences both simultaneously

Both inner and outer fall on the same stainless, perfectly refecting, yet void surface

Having no form in itself

But it is that very emptiness 

Which allows it to reflect all forms with equanimity

So we are at once the small thing bound by the ever changing boundary of our skin 

and the greater thing outside of it

 

The energy-information of reality pours into the individual human being

And the world it experiences equally

Our lives are the unfolding dance of this energy information

The human nature feeding back with nature

 

Life is sacred for each and every one of us

Because each of us is entangled in this effortless, timeless dance with the same partner

Human nature is reflecting nature always

Because we are her

She constructs us with a trillion invisible hands that shape us in each and every moment

And we yearn to return to her

Wisdom

Is the recognition of the sacredness of myself

Of every other living / dying being we encounter

And of this moment called “life”

 

 

 

 

 

On Sat, 24 Apr 2021 at 17:35, Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Great reflections, Nik and Gien. I have enjoyed this discussion.

 

Adjacent to that, I would like to note that if we just look at the description of the narrative he shares in the video that started this thread about well-being (separating the message from the messenger for the moment), and align it with the UTOK approach to character adaptation, development, well-being and mindfulness, there is much resonance and thus highlights some possible key points for a wisdom commons.

 

Best,
G

 

From: tree of knowledge system discussion <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of James Gien Wong
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2021 11:25 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: TOK Sadhguru on Universal and Subjective Engineering

 

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Hi Nicholas,

 

See my reply below

 

 

On Sat, Apr 24, 2021 at 2:21 PM Nicholas Lattanzio <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

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Gien,

 

I appreciate your wise words, and whole heartedly agree with just about every word if I understood you correctly. However, I'm not totally sure what you're trying to convey to me as I feel most all of us on this listserv agree with, and in one form or another, advocate for the embodiment of wisdom in a manner akin to you. 

 

Perhaps I missed your point, but I hope I have not offended you with my caution to Gregg about Sadhguru.

 

G: No offence taken. Who is Sadhguru to those who only watch videos on youtube? His words are wise, he makes me laugh sometimes but these are all just reactions to symbols. Who the man really is, we really have no idea. Media builds an image of a person, but is not that person. So all warnings are fair. That's why I said that an open wisdom commons serves an important function. Much in the same way that scientific knowledge is abstracted away from the persons who develop it and take on an autonomy of their own, so too a wisdom commons that does this would be independent of individual teachers and their potential foibles. It would just be a repository of the best wisdom of our collective humanity and would benefit us all.

 

 

I too am quite familiar with the abundant corruption of mystical teachers, many of whom start their teachings with the most genuine and sincere of intentions. YouTube and other social media platforms have also been a source of these falsehoods, as it is easier than ever for one to put out a lecture or some sort of satsang and claim whatever they want with no proof whatsoever. While I believe Sadhguru is a man with largely good intentions who has spread more wisdom than hate by far in his life's work, his mystical claims have never been evinced outside of people benefitting physically and psychologically from his rebranding of the yoga school of Hindu theology; which should be no surprise to anyone given we know these techniques benefit us and we've known that for a long long time. 

 

G: Agreed. He makes assertions that, though they may come from his tradition, are articulated in passing very quickly as if they are absolute truths. When the message is delivered to listeners from another culture with no context, this could be very challenging to accept at face value. Even moreso when, in the West we value independent, analytic thinking so highly.  

 

There are absolutely strange things out there that we cannot capture at all with words. Indeed, as an Advaitist I am also very familiar either the Zen tradition, and oddly enough I too have dabbled in the Tibetan tradition and learned a great deal from the Tibetan Book of the Dead through my involvement in the Integral community and Ram Dass' Love Serve Remember foundation. As the notion of sunyata demonstrates, the content can never hold the context, and I firmly believe in that radical sense that any finding, be it one of scientific inquiry or mystical practice, is not capable of bearing the weight of the tree of life without first surrendering its worldly mundaneity. This is the essence of my epistemology, nondual empiricism, as the tree of life can hold all with pure, radically open, grace and wisdom. But the tree must be recognized for any knowledge to be utilized in a way that advances humanity, and I believe Sadhguru has failed to do this, because he has not given due credence to the ground of being.

 

G: I am not so familiar with his teachings so will  have to discover this for myself. He has interesting and wise messages, but I have only caught sight of him peripherally as a person of potential interest. Like you, however, I listen with openness, but also with caution tinged by past experiences.

 

As such, he is not a problem per say, but he does not have bring anything new to the table not previously devoured by the West from the Wisdon traditions. It is this aspect of the human participation that is equal cause for concern, particularly in the West where we have largely lost the wisdom of our own theologies. I remember an exchange once with a member of Adyashanti's crew when I was doing a retreat in Colorado a few years ago. This woman, who had worked with Adya for years, knew him to be a great and wise teacher, which he absolutely is. Although she and I both laughed and had some sadness for the misguidance of many seekers, who in this case were buying bottled water from a stand next to a freshwater creek. 

 

G: The systemic contradictions are all around us and we often see past them to operate in the mundane world. 

 

We want the truth packaged neatly for us, so much so that we often seek what we already have; this leaves us quite vulnerable to manipulation, and fairly calls for caution in embracing (versus being accepting of) just anyone who manages to pull a following and treat themselves as a guru. 

 

G: Those who have been through the cycle can see the same naivety of the next generation. One thing I would suggest that any wisdom teachings should embody is the great diversity of the collective mistakes of the past so that we future generations can pre-empt falling afresh to old patterns of manipulation.

 

My case-in-point, it is well said that he who knows the dao cannot speak it, and he who speaks the dao does not know it. Sadhguru clearly falls in the latter. This alone is an immanent critique of his teachings as being something novel. He has popularized yoga in a way we can be thankful for, but I  personally would not go any further in embracing his teachings than that still great feat.

 

G: The great paradox. On my hike today I felt the same. Every moment is sacred and there is only one, and then, not even one but what is there to say? We are all here in it all the time, yet we cannot fully appreciate and be in awe of it. The wonder of it all is so overwhelming that perhaps we have to disconnect from it and generate the mundane mask to cover it.

 

Regards,

Nicholas G. Lattanzio, Psy.D.

 

On Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 3:36 AM James Gien Wong <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

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Hi Nicolas,

 

Forgot one other important idea

 

addendum

 

One important quality of such an open protocol wisdom commons that I neglected to mention is accessibility. Unlike current wisdom traditions, the emphasis is on the one common denominator they all share - they require human beings to participate. So free participation in a non-dogmatic, ever-evolving body of wisdom, with no intimidation, no closing off, no threats of ex-communication or worse if one believes in other ideas. Radical openness - because that is what is required if we are to collectively bring out the best of what it is to be a living and dying human being. Such a body of wisdom would welcome the wisdom experiences and lessons from all walks of life. People are welcome with their belief systems. They are just asked to be open-minded and not close-minded, which includes forcing one's views upon others. Starting out by collectively defining a salient body of common human denominators becomes a critical exercise so that we have common ground to begin with.

 


Wishing you WELLth

Gien

Future Ancestor

 

Pull a thread here and you’ll find it’s attached to the rest of the world. - Nadeem Aslam

 

 

On Sat, Apr 24, 2021 at 12:51 AM Nicholas Lattanzio <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

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I haven't looked at this link, but I have followed Jaggi Vasudev (A sadhguru, not the sadhguru) for several years now, including being a participant in a study as an experienced Yoga practitioner, most specifically in reference to having completed the Isha Inner Engineering Program that ended this past October (https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04498442). Vasudev is a very brilliant man, he is also quite misinformed when it comes to his own traditions, particularly in understanding nonduality (he frequently bashes Advaitists in a way that shows he doesn't understand the school of thought), and frankly he is quite narcissistic. I am not against Vasudev, but he is not who he claims to be. He is very good at making straw man arguments, which is how he has somehow managed to isolate himself from the rest of the Hindu schools of thought. He has made outlandish claims about things from having meditated for several hours to heal a compound fracture to pronouncing that in a visit with nobel laureates that he was able to relay shockingly advanced and novel concepts in math and physics which was "nobel prize winning stuff" only to go on to say that he did not care for such prizes. The man is more a salesman than a guru, and I strongly caution vigilance and scrutiny in analyzing his work.


Regards,

 

Nicholas G. Lattanzio, Psy.D.

 

 

On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at 5:09 PM Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Hi Folks,

  Gien shared a talk about Sadhguru at Harvard that I thought it was helpful.

I then found this talk:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sO-19RK9VkE

I found deep resonance with this and my path through psychology into psychological mindfulness and wisdom energy. I also see huge amounts of neurosis in the US precisely because we almost universally fail to comprehend this wisdom from 15,000 years ago…

Best,

Gregg

 

 

 

___________________________________________

Gregg Henriques, Ph.D.
Professor
Department of Graduate Psychology
216 Johnston Hall
MSC 7401
James Madison University
Harrisonburg, VA 22807
(540) 568-7857 (phone)
(540) 568-4747 (fax)


Be that which enhances dignity and well-being with integrity.

Check out the Unified Theory Of Knowledge homepage at:

https://www.unifiedtheoryofknowledge.org/

 

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Wishing you WELLth

Gien

Future Ancestor

 

Pull a thread here and you’ll find it’s attached to the rest of the world. - Nadeem Aslam

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