On Apr 26, 2021, at 9:32 PM, James Gien Wong <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
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--Thanks Catherine, Waladmar and everyone for the well wishes! I got the nurse to sneak a picture of me in my ICU bed.<IMG_3926.jpg>
I can’t write too much right now as I’m always feeling nausea from the pain killers I’m on. Everyone has so many great vids to watch, especially Gregg but hard to keep up with the man! He is a man on a mission!
When a tree falls in the forest, does anybody hear?
Our normal consciousness we humans are endowed with Is limited. We can’t hear the trees falling in the forest, nor what goes on inside our bodies. The destruction that takes place outside is accompanied by the ravages inside. Destroying rain forests outside our bodies to make way for land for cattle and palm trees for products we ingest also destroys the sensitive ecosystem within our bodies.
It is revealing that when they do a CT scan on your body, you can discover all kinds of things about this physical body, the same one which supports all the different types of consciousness in alluded to in the ToK. It’s rather interesting how one’s own personal medical diagnosis brings a lot more meaning to the mind-body relationship. One thing i strongly felt, perhaps primed by the 1st person versus 3rd person discussions in this group, is the contrast in knowing between our own limited personal, mundane consciousness and the 3rd person interventions that the entire health industry is built upon.
For instance in my case, not only did they use the power of 3rd person cumulative cultural knowledge to uncover the source of my pain, but also two other incidental findings, as they are called. They didnt go looking for them, but the CT scan is a complete map of the entire body. That’s when they found a potential tumor growth in the spinal cord and another one in the lungs. So now the medical party is growing...adding a lung and bone specialist to the urologist! Lung doctor gave me a lung test and the nodule, she said, is on the lower lobe of the lung, is not spiky nor calcified so likely not malignant. However, due to limitations of technology, they are not certain so need to take another scan in 3months time. If it still hasn’t grown by then, then another scan at 6 month. By that time, if there is no growth, they consider it benign. Case closed. But they can do one more at 1 year milestone to be extra, extra safe. Bone doctor’s first statements were also that it doesn’t have characteristics of a malignant tumor. So that’s the fun I’ve been having in my iceberg of life. I thought i would pass this info on to you all in case something like this happens to you so you have some reference system and useful knowledge.
What do they say ... “what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger”, i think it makes you wiser and also more prepared to let go when the moment of our last breath arrives.
In my morning and evening hikes, i always notice how life and death are next to each other, living plants next to dead ones. It is just a fact of nature, and we are part of this sacred Mandela. We have been brought forth by nature, and we will one day, sooner or later return to her. We come here, take these human forms, endowed with their unique capacities and limitations, and articulate nature as humans - what a friend calls “humaning”. And when we have exhausted our humaning capacity, we are returned to nature great recycling bin, where we are disaggregated into countless pieces from which our living dna code originally constructed us from. We are nature and she is us. What individual living form will parts of me assume next time? We come from everywhere and return there too. We become the sea, the sky, the earth and all its living inhabitants. We seem to vanish, but we’ve just become so large that we become unrecognizable!
Dear Gien, thank you for your thoughtful reflections, honest sharing, and remarkable wit throughout what sounds like a very painful physical experience. I am wishing you a rapid recovery and hopefully an easeful passing to avoid surgery.
I deeply appreciate your sentiment that "sharing our personal stories in our collective journey humanizes all of us, helps mitigate misunderstandings, and incentifies and makes more authentic this collective journey.” This is my attempt here to practice this.
I really resonate with what you, as well as Chance, shared. I must admit, it is always nerve-wracking for me, as a young, female student, to write anything to this group. There is always the risk of not knowing enough, not seeing enough of the iceberg of who someone else is or the context from which their wisdom is emanating, or not having the right words to convey meaning adequately. There is also the risk of not adhering to or even knowing the proper “etiquette” of posting in listervs like this; and my sense is there exists some assumed etiquette that perhaps some of us have learned and others (like myself) are still trying to understand. This is a product of any space I think that requires a certain level of lexicon and shared code/language system to engage in without completely becoming passing ships at sea. I am not sure if I am the only person (or she/her for that matter) who feels a bit intimidated in this space, but sharing helps me navigate some of my own fears of being rejected, shamed, or judged for my thoughts amidst a sea of highly educated individuals (thoughts which inevitably will be incomplete glimpses into a broader meaning-making system).
Nicholas, I took some time to further explore your work with Advaita, including what is accessible online of your exciting dissertation, which I am now reading ("I Am That I Am: Self-Inquiry, Nondual Awareness, and Nondual Therapy as an Eclectic Framework”) as well as your TOK talk on "Self-Inquiry, Nonduality and the Identity Crisis.” I am always happy to get to learn more about how the ancient wisdom systems from India (Advaita Vedanta, Sankhya, Tantric Hatha Yoga, Ayurveda, and many more) are being translated through a lens of western psychological systems of epistemology, ontology, and phenomenology. I feel quite protective of these systems not becoming too heavily viewed from lenses that risk distorting their very purpose or lived experiences and practices- which is where some of my own caution in engaging in scholarship around these traditions comes in (as well as my positionality). So I am inspired by your conviction and courage to delve deeply into these systems through scholarship, a much needed endeavor from my perspective. I appreciate your words of caution about how we receive and analyze the words and work of various thought leaders, especially those as charismatic and oratorically gifted as Sadhguru. At this stage, I have studied with too many thought leaders in these fields who have varying perspectives on how others teach to know that there are different levels at which some of these wisdom traditions can be shared, depending upon the listeners and receptivity/depth of understanding of the moment/group/context. And I wholeheartedly agree (if I understand you correctly) that some who claim to have knowledge are liars, hypocrites, narcissists, and/or manipulators for their own end and gain (often just ego). I am not yet sure if Sadhguru is that, but will look more deeply into it given the level of your caution.
For the past 15 years I have studied with (some in person, some digitally, some through lineage-holders) and learned practices from Sadhguru, Maharishi, Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, Dr. Vasant Lad, Dr. Satyanarayana Dasa, Lama Tsultrim Allione, Dr. Claudia Welch, Dr. Robert Svoboda, David Frawley, Swami Kripalu, Dr. Rosy Mann, Richard Miller, Yoganand Michael Carroll, Dr. Scott Blossom, Chandra Easton, and more. I generally consider myself a practitioner and not a scholar (I spent 4+ years studying Ayurveda and 9+ years as a yoga teacher and student) so I wouldn’t even begin to be qualified enough to speak to Sadhguru’s ultimate adherence to/divergence from Advaita Vedanta. I share this to say that I have been in many circles where there is heavy critique of who should be allowed to teach and share what wisdom traditions, and how those lineages should be held and shared and with what level of consistency, adaptability, depth, etc. At this stage, I feel that any encouragement (like the Sadhguru talk Gregg shared) to help raise consciousness, promote ahimsa, and protect our dwindling earth resources (including precious plant medicine) is in the right ballpark, even if done imperfectly. So while I hope no one here is necessarily in the market for a single guru by which to live their lives (which can be a venerable path when chosen wisely), I do hope there is increasing openness to the various forms and systems though which messages of unity, growth, and consciousness can emerge. It may not be a message for all, but it might capture and move someone at the right moment.
I know I still won’t feel like any of this accurately or adequately captures exactly what I am trying to convey, but it is a practice/attempt. And this is why I will likely always be a practitioner and not a scholar :-) (Sorry Gregg!).
Gien, wishing you swift healing! Nicholas, hoping to see more of your scholarship out there in the field soon!
############################On Apr 26, 2021, at 1:46 AM, James Gien Wong <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
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Thanks Waldemar!
No problem, anyone can share with anyone!
The urologist said that the pain is the interoceptive pressure when the urine flow is obstructed by the stone so builds up pressure on the surrounding internal tissue. To avoid invasive surgery, he wants to give me a chance to pee out the pea-sized calcification, but he said it will be painful. So seems it’s one I’m between a rock and a hard place.
In the context of this group, being in the hospital is a good example of the conscious level in contrast to the micro physical level of our body’s normal function. So much of the medical interventions are based on molecular biology and so much of the instrumentation is based on physical science. We also have so little consciousness of what our bodies are doing in slow motion, like growing cancers, tumors, more viruses or kidney stones. When these internal processes make themselves known, it is in a pretty dramatic way.--
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Gien:
It is said that the pain of kidney stones is worse than that of child birth.I don’t know, not having experienced either condition.I am glad you are receiving care - this will pas (pardon, please, the pun).Lithotripsy is effective and non-invasive.
Your poem is wonderful.I have chosen to share it with my daughter, a fine artist - having assumed that is OK.
For you it is “the human mystery” and for me it is “the human condition” - different words, same intent, I believe.
Get well - we need your thoughts.
Best regards,
Waldemar
Waldemar A Schmidt, PhD, MD
(Perseveret et Percipiunt)
503.631.8044
Strive not to be a success, but rather to be of value. (A Einstein)############################
On Apr 25, 2021, at 7:47 PM, James Gien Wong <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
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Thanks everyone,
I agree with Chance, Kacey,It’s so interesting how dialogue helps us dive deeper so that abstract ideas take on concreteness through our shared experiences. We are collectively diving together to get to the bottom of this human mystery.
It is we who imbue these dry words with humanity saying “hey, there’s a h7man being behind these abstract symbols riding on the wave of the internet ether!
Sharing our personal journeys and bringing those to the collective journey humanizes these words. The words we choose to write, or not, help us fill in the big and missing picture of who we are when we engage in public discourse, revealing more of that hidden part of us beneath the words we have already shared. This is of course, going back again to the metaphor of people as icebergs and what we choose to write as what we choose to reveal about ourselves, the visible part of this iceberg. A case in point is that since Kacey wrote her email, i had a medical emergency, suffering some phenomenologically excruciating pain In my lower right back, was admitted to hospital via emergency room and lying in a bed in ICU as i type this. After some detective work and eliminating covid and heart disease, the CT scan revealed a kidney stone. who knew they could cause such pain? Doctors, I suppose! But in retrospect, the signs were all growing as I now recall episodes of taking longer to urinate. Hindsight is 20/20!
I guess the bottom line, which I’ve now reached, is that sharing our personal stories in our collective journey humanizes all of us, helps mitigate misunderstandings, and incentifies and makes more authentic this collective journey.--
Gien,
This was inspiring and elegant. Thanks.
FWIW, I sometimes add “reflection” to the Dharma trio of doing, being and becoming (here is Daniel S on Dharma inquiry framed this way)…
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Best,
G
From: tree of knowledge system discussion <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of James Gien Wong
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2021 12:56 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: TOK Sadhguru on Universal and Subjective Engineering
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Reflections - an interesting word - our minds, human nature, reflecting nature.
The world enters “us” through our senses
But who are “we”?
My thoughts on nature reflect her
My dialogue with you reflects you
We are caught in a hall of endless mirrors
Each of us, a jewel in Indra’s net of jewels
During my walk today,
a “reflection” bubbled up and surfaced to consciousness
What Nick said about the Dao,
or that which we are all in and always experiencing, when there are no words...
The outer sensed, objective reality
Is always accompanied by the inner, subjective experience
It is only language which cleaves them in half
And creates them as constructed, autonomous symbolic realities
So that greater whole which cannot be labeled, but which is nevertheless attempted
Is the union of the inner and the outer
The collaboration between the inner and the outer
We cannot speak of it, cannot even call it a synthesis
Since that would immediately imply they are separate
Something we cannot label experiences both simultaneously
Both inner and outer fall on the same stainless, perfectly refecting, yet void surface
Having no form in itself
But it is that very emptiness
Which allows it to reflect all forms with equanimity
So we are at once the small thing bound by the ever changing boundary of our skin
and the greater thing outside of it
The energy-information of reality pours into the individual human being
And the world it experiences equally
Our lives are the unfolding dance of this energy information
The human nature feeding back with nature
Life is sacred for each and every one of us
Because each of us is entangled in this effortless, timeless dance with the same partner
Human nature is reflecting nature always
Because we are her
She constructs us with a trillion invisible hands that shape us in each and every moment
And we yearn to return to her
Wisdom
Is the recognition of the sacredness of myself
Of every other living / dying being we encounter
And of this moment called “life”
On Sat, 24 Apr 2021 at 17:35, Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Great reflections, Nik and Gien. I have enjoyed this discussion.
Adjacent to that, I would like to note that if we just look at the description of the narrative he shares in the video that started this thread about well-being (separating the message from the messenger for the moment), and align it with the UTOK approach to character adaptation, development, well-being and mindfulness, there is much resonance and thus highlights some possible key points for a wisdom commons.
Best,
G
From: tree of knowledge system discussion <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of James Gien Wong
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2021 11:25 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: TOK Sadhguru on Universal and Subjective Engineering
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Hi Nicholas,
See my reply below
On Sat, Apr 24, 2021 at 2:21 PM Nicholas Lattanzio <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
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Gien,
I appreciate your wise words, and whole heartedly agree with just about every word if I understood you correctly. However, I'm not totally sure what you're trying to convey to me as I feel most all of us on this listserv agree with, and in one form or another, advocate for the embodiment of wisdom in a manner akin to you.
Perhaps I missed your point, but I hope I have not offended you with my caution to Gregg about Sadhguru.
G: No offence taken. Who is Sadhguru to those who only watch videos on youtube? His words are wise, he makes me laugh sometimes but these are all just reactions to symbols. Who the man really is, we really have no idea. Media builds an image of a person, but is not that person. So all warnings are fair. That's why I said that an open wisdom commons serves an important function. Much in the same way that scientific knowledge is abstracted away from the persons who develop it and take on an autonomy of their own, so too a wisdom commons that does this would be independent of individual teachers and their potential foibles. It would just be a repository of the best wisdom of our collective humanity and would benefit us all.
I too am quite familiar with the abundant corruption of mystical teachers, many of whom start their teachings with the most genuine and sincere of intentions. YouTube and other social media platforms have also been a source of these falsehoods, as it is easier than ever for one to put out a lecture or some sort of satsang and claim whatever they want with no proof whatsoever. While I believe Sadhguru is a man with largely good intentions who has spread more wisdom than hate by far in his life's work, his mystical claims have never been evinced outside of people benefitting physically and psychologically from his rebranding of the yoga school of Hindu theology; which should be no surprise to anyone given we know these techniques benefit us and we've known that for a long long time.
G: Agreed. He makes assertions that, though they may come from his tradition, are articulated in passing very quickly as if they are absolute truths. When the message is delivered to listeners from another culture with no context, this could be very challenging to accept at face value. Even moreso when, in the West we value independent, analytic thinking so highly.
There are absolutely strange things out there that we cannot capture at all with words. Indeed, as an Advaitist I am also very familiar either the Zen tradition, and oddly enough I too have dabbled in the Tibetan tradition and learned a great deal from the Tibetan Book of the Dead through my involvement in the Integral community and Ram Dass' Love Serve Remember foundation. As the notion of sunyata demonstrates, the content can never hold the context, and I firmly believe in that radical sense that any finding, be it one of scientific inquiry or mystical practice, is not capable of bearing the weight of the tree of life without first surrendering its worldly mundaneity. This is the essence of my epistemology, nondual empiricism, as the tree of life can hold all with pure, radically open, grace and wisdom. But the tree must be recognized for any knowledge to be utilized in a way that advances humanity, and I believe Sadhguru has failed to do this, because he has not given due credence to the ground of being.
G: I am not so familiar with his teachings so will have to discover this for myself. He has interesting and wise messages, but I have only caught sight of him peripherally as a person of potential interest. Like you, however, I listen with openness, but also with caution tinged by past experiences.
As such, he is not a problem per say, but he does not have bring anything new to the table not previously devoured by the West from the Wisdon traditions. It is this aspect of the human participation that is equal cause for concern, particularly in the West where we have largely lost the wisdom of our own theologies. I remember an exchange once with a member of Adyashanti's crew when I was doing a retreat in Colorado a few years ago. This woman, who had worked with Adya for years, knew him to be a great and wise teacher, which he absolutely is. Although she and I both laughed and had some sadness for the misguidance of many seekers, who in this case were buying bottled water from a stand next to a freshwater creek.
G: The systemic contradictions are all around us and we often see past them to operate in the mundane world.
We want the truth packaged neatly for us, so much so that we often seek what we already have; this leaves us quite vulnerable to manipulation, and fairly calls for caution in embracing (versus being accepting of) just anyone who manages to pull a following and treat themselves as a guru.
G: Those who have been through the cycle can see the same naivety of the next generation. One thing I would suggest that any wisdom teachings should embody is the great diversity of the collective mistakes of the past so that we future generations can pre-empt falling afresh to old patterns of manipulation.
My case-in-point, it is well said that he who knows the dao cannot speak it, and he who speaks the dao does not know it. Sadhguru clearly falls in the latter. This alone is an immanent critique of his teachings as being something novel. He has popularized yoga in a way we can be thankful for, but I personally would not go any further in embracing his teachings than that still great feat.
G: The great paradox. On my hike today I felt the same. Every moment is sacred and there is only one, and then, not even one but what is there to say? We are all here in it all the time, yet we cannot fully appreciate and be in awe of it. The wonder of it all is so overwhelming that perhaps we have to disconnect from it and generate the mundane mask to cover it.
Regards,
Nicholas G. Lattanzio, Psy.D.
On Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 3:36 AM James Gien Wong <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
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Hi Nicolas,
Forgot one other important idea
addendum
One important quality of such an open protocol wisdom commons that I neglected to mention is accessibility. Unlike current wisdom traditions, the emphasis is on the one common denominator they all share - they require human beings to participate. So free participation in a non-dogmatic, ever-evolving body of wisdom, with no intimidation, no closing off, no threats of ex-communication or worse if one believes in other ideas. Radical openness - because that is what is required if we are to collectively bring out the best of what it is to be a living and dying human being. Such a body of wisdom would welcome the wisdom experiences and lessons from all walks of life. People are welcome with their belief systems. They are just asked to be open-minded and not close-minded, which includes forcing one's views upon others. Starting out by collectively defining a salient body of common human denominators becomes a critical exercise so that we have common ground to begin with.
Wishing you WELLth
Gien
Future Ancestor
Pull a thread here and you’ll find it’s attached to the rest of the world. - Nadeem Aslam
On Sat, Apr 24, 2021 at 12:51 AM Nicholas Lattanzio <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
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I haven't looked at this link, but I have followed Jaggi Vasudev (A sadhguru, not the sadhguru) for several years now, including being a participant in a study as an experienced Yoga practitioner, most specifically in reference to having completed the Isha Inner Engineering Program that ended this past October (https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04498442). Vasudev is a very brilliant man, he is also quite misinformed when it comes to his own traditions, particularly in understanding nonduality (he frequently bashes Advaitists in a way that shows he doesn't understand the school of thought), and frankly he is quite narcissistic. I am not against Vasudev, but he is not who he claims to be. He is very good at making straw man arguments, which is how he has somehow managed to isolate himself from the rest of the Hindu schools of thought. He has made outlandish claims about things from having meditated for several hours to heal a compound fracture to pronouncing that in a visit with nobel laureates that he was able to relay shockingly advanced and novel concepts in math and physics which was "nobel prize winning stuff" only to go on to say that he did not care for such prizes. The man is more a salesman than a guru, and I strongly caution vigilance and scrutiny in analyzing his work.
Regards,
Nicholas G. Lattanzio, Psy.D.
On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at 5:09 PM Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Hi Folks,
Gien shared a talk about Sadhguru at Harvard that I thought it was helpful.
I then found this talk:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sO-19RK9VkE
I found deep resonance with this and my path through psychology into psychological mindfulness and wisdom energy. I also see huge amounts of neurosis in the US precisely because we almost universally fail to comprehend this wisdom from 15,000 years ago…
Best,
Gregg
___________________________________________
Gregg Henriques, Ph.D.
Professor
Department of Graduate Psychology
216 Johnston Hall
MSC 7401
James Madison University
Harrisonburg, VA 22807
(540) 568-7857 (phone)
(540) 568-4747 (fax)
Be that which enhances dignity and well-being with integrity.Check out the Unified Theory Of Knowledge homepage at:
https://www.unifiedtheoryofknowledge.org/
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Wishing you WELLth
Gien
Future Ancestor
Pull a thread here and you’ll find it’s attached to the rest of the world. - Nadeem Aslam
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