All:
I have not been following this discussion of plants "seeing," or being conscious; but a brief response. If zoological entities in biology, dogs, birds, dolphins, cats, viruses, namely anything that reproduces, can maybe "think," why can"t botanical entities such as plants at least see? Viruses mutate. What does that mean? Are they reacting to something? Rocks, dirt, water cannot think or react. But they also do not reproduce.
We talk of the language of dolphins, the emotions in dogs, elephants, and so on. But then, what is language?
I would not be able to casually dismiss the view that plants "see." Some years ago there was a video of an MIT professor or student playing frisbe with his dog. The guy, after a while, realized he and the dog were moving, running from side to side. The guy wondered, "am I playing with the dog and the dog reacting, or is the dog also messing with me?" Good question. So, do plants see? I have no idea. Maybe.
Best,
Michael M. Kazanjian
On Friday, July 30, 2021, 6:02:16 AM CDT, Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
<!--#yiv5671368779 _filtered {} _filtered {}#yiv5671368779 #yiv5671368779 p.yiv5671368779MsoNormal, #yiv5671368779 li.yiv5671368779MsoNormal, #yiv5671368779 div.yiv5671368779MsoNormal {margin:0in;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif;}#yiv5671368779 a:link, #yiv5671368779 span.yiv5671368779MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv5671368779 span.yiv5671368779EmailStyle19 {font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif;color:windowtext;}#yiv5671368779 .yiv5671368779MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered {}#yiv5671368779 div.yiv5671368779WordSection1 {}-->
Definitely interesting. Many thanks for sharing, Bruce.
I have been tracking this issue for a long time, and it needs deep exploration. The section on whether plants “see” was new to me, and I have flagged that to look into it more. I also recommend the Entangled Life by Sheldrake on fungi and lichen.
A couple of things to keep in mind/reflect on while reading:
First, to the extent that sentience/subjective conscious experience exists out side the brain/nervous system is a revolutionary/extraordinary claim. Of course, not impossible, just a potentially revolutionary claim. I love this kind of research and it needs to be carefully examined. I liken it to the world of parapsychology.
Second, plant experiential consciousness represents a finding that challenges the architecture of the Tree of Knowledge descriptive metaphysical system/ontology. So, I (we?) should be acknowledge from a “dissonance” perspective. (Note, this actually shows why the ToK is a good, conservative map of natural scientific ontology).
Third, the article as a couple of minor conceptual and technical errors that I made me pause a bit. First, there is a long history regarding the Society of Plant Neurobiology.Founded in 2005, it changed its name to Plant Signaling and Behavior in 2009. One reason is fairly obvious…there is no neurobiology in plants. The name was given to emphasize that the scholars where exploring functional behaviors normally associated with the nervous system. Second, the author essentially advertises that he is enlightened to the fact that there is not a hierarchy of complexification in nature. I find that advertisement a bit suspicious on several accounts. Consider, for example, feeling pain is considered to be at the “based” of Mind2. So, we are wondering if plant have that—but this is quite suggestive of the fact that there is a layering of complexification—especially as we study and grapple with the question and its answer. That suggests to me a bit of ideological blindness in the name of enlightenment, which is something I have come to look for in this kind of space (i.e., folks who claim new radical realities). Also, is stated we don’t know if plants have phenomenal consciousness because we can’t ask them. Yes, but we do essentially know that many animals have phenomenological consciousness (seehere for how we can measure access consciousness in crows).
Fourth, this article is a good example of why so much careful work needs to be done considering the epistemological gap between the exterior and interior. It also is why we need good definitions of behavior, which is what we see from the outside. Organisms exhibit functional awareness and responsivity. This is the behavioral pattern of Living things. And that is what is being described, although, of course, there are suggestions that these biological behaviors are indicative of an “inner life”. Possible, of course. And would be game changing in our (my) worldview. As such, we should be open and interested…and, yes, this is inconclusive at this juncture.
Many thanks, Bruce.
Best,
G
From: tree of knowledge system discussion <[log in to unmask]>On Behalf Of Bruce Alderman
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 12:24 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Inconclusive but interesting
CAUTION:This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.
On plant intelligence and perception
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__m.nautil.us_issue_104_harmony_plants-2Dfeel-2Dpain-2Dand-2Dmight-2Deven-2Dsee-3Futm-5Fsource-3Dpocket-2Dnewtab-26fbclid-3DIwAR1HTZ7JaTsbu8ysmn14MRqGPyh-2DLNuCKZHLbEO6-2DlJhuB-5FUnS6npge5TJM&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ehb3JHJCjMtv4NzPsIRqtC8isZ-2ZuRX0gFbeR7mo4c&s=JVousUBVa8bzK4ZJWx_Ni-9RBqGkv8_KIODfoqcjZDM&e=
############################
To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the following link:http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1
############################
To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list:write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] click the following link:http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1
############################
To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list:
write to: mailto:[log in to unmask]
or click the following link:
http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1