Righto, I stand corrected genes equivalent to atoms in the various planes! There are many levels between the gene floor (4) and the symbolic justification floor (10). Multi-level causation has to be pretty robust to traverse 6 different levels of the periodic table of behavior! Are you also saying that genes alone may not be sufficient condition for symbolic justification? Would that be because in a multi-level complex system, factors from each intermediate level can also contribute to an amalgamated sufficiency condition that includes specific values of genetic variables? Is a short way of summarizing it that the system complexity is far greater than our current state of understanding to make any kind of intelligent genetic-based argument as causation of higher level behavior? Wishing you WELLth Gien Future Ancestor Pull a thread here and you’ll find it’s attached to the rest of the world. - Nadeem Aslam www.stopresetgo.org https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.earthwisecentre.org_tps&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=jN9XGuCW6NlqXqd5HevSVEtvxQWOLJhF2P--4kkJNT0&s=Dj29aeDbvWAPSO3r4WmglZVdsQz6NgJkg06umo0NkIw&e= https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__tippingpointfestival.org&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=jN9XGuCW6NlqXqd5HevSVEtvxQWOLJhF2P--4kkJNT0&s=UPwZptEz7rna_hgo_sgzdM7qNFnpShZd0wDOt_HUozM&e= https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.earthwisecentre.org_music-2Dfor-2Dchange&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=jN9XGuCW6NlqXqd5HevSVEtvxQWOLJhF2P--4kkJNT0&s=UGzjdf6WTbggDmttT6AdtVhbtfyD_n7baxkWL6Ti4_I&e= www.futureliving.institute [log in to unmask] intl ph: (1) 206 973-3924 SA ph: (+27) 79 589 6173 skype: geniepop On Mon, Sep 20, 2021 at 12:13 PM Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx < [log in to unmask]> wrote: > Hi James, > > Thanks. I agree with you fully about interlevel causation. This is > something UTOK tries to help folks get clear about. Indeed, in the UTOK’s > taxonomy of science given by the ToK into Periodic Table of > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__medium.com_unified-2Dtheory-2Dof-2Dknowledge_the-2D12-2Dfloors-2Dof-2Dscience-2D9c2c485df315&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=jN9XGuCW6NlqXqd5HevSVEtvxQWOLJhF2P--4kkJNT0&s=r4zAovoEMmcdTugE75QQK9gsO8QAfSNdOJwDCRZ_9Cw&e= > > Behavior > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__medium.com_unified-2Dtheory-2Dof-2Dknowledge_the-2D12-2Dfloors-2Dof-2Dscience-2D9c2c485df315&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=jN9XGuCW6NlqXqd5HevSVEtvxQWOLJhF2P--4kkJNT0&s=r4zAovoEMmcdTugE75QQK9gsO8QAfSNdOJwDCRZ_9Cw&e= > > (attached), your analogy is good, but not quite what UTOK gives. Rather, it > is cells (floor 5) that are Life’s equivalent of atoms (floor 2) at the > Matter level. The reason is that both cells and atoms are primary units of > organization. Genes are the fundamental “digits of biological information” > and correspond to Floor 4, and are akin to subatomic particles (floor 1). > > > > Not sure if you saw that Lee B. posted this article earlier. My reply was: > > > > *“If anyone believes either that “genetics determines all/there are > one-to-one gene-behavior relations” OR that “genetics have nothing to do > with our talents, dispositions, or proclivities,” then they simply are not > educated in the science of (mental) behavior.”* > > > > Both atoms and genes are justifications/constructions, so long as that is > the referent point we mean in the semiotic triangle (i.e., our human > constructions versus the referent). Of course, they are also both > scientific ontological concepts that refer to things in the ontic reality > (i.e., they are not *just* justifications/constructions, which is what > something like a fictitious novel is). > > > > I fully agree with you about knowledge helping us to depolarize society, I > welcome any opportunity to help people start on a journey of awakening to > the truth. Moralizing about genetics, either as entities that determine > human behavior or as inevitably dangerous concepts that lead us to Nazism > are not pathways to the truth. > > > Best, > Gregg > > > > > > *From:* tree of knowledge system discussion < > [log in to unmask]> *On Behalf Of *James Gien Wong > *Sent:* Monday, September 20, 2021 4:48 AM > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Subject:* This article seems to point to a confusion of interlevel > causation > > > > *CAUTION: *This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click links > or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is > safe. > ------------------------------ > > Obviously a very touchy subject... > > > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.newyorker.com_magazine_2021_09_13_can-2Dprogressives-2Dbe-2Dconvinced-2Dthat-2Dgenetics-2Dmatters_amp-3Ffbclid-3DIwAR1qqy381NHVB-2DY1Tpexr0tKjLHktn-2DGATmvTOKW88MAXCU5Y7bTI8KMyxo&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=jN9XGuCW6NlqXqd5HevSVEtvxQWOLJhF2P--4kkJNT0&s=B9IRoY3g50PWxC-nF0AEap_207n0JhimWDdkAlfv85k&e= > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.newyorker.com_magazine_2021_09_13_can-2Dprogressives-2Dbe-2Dconvinced-2Dthat-2Dgenetics-2Dmatters_amp-3Ffbclid-3DIwAR1qqy381NHVB-2DY1Tpexr0tKjLHktn-2DGATmvTOKW88MAXCU5Y7bTI8KMyxo&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=uoJ3BDErbFc-Rl-kStOpfwFglWLuGVx9pX6yPoM3uLc&s=vp_NlzLtB_z6ws3pp5FfWkzoos8cjsUq0Mn1FlBARn8&e=> > > > > The thought that occurred to me, from this forum’s perspective is that > genes are the biological equivalent of atoms for the physical universe - > genes are the reductionist atoms for the biological universe. Just as it is > quite difficult to generalize causality arguments of quantum effects > observed at subatomic scales to ones at human/ macroscopic scale, it is > difficult to generalize observations at the bio-molecular level to the > human psychological level. > > > > Perhaps a ToK framing of the problem can enlighten both polarized sides of > this contentious argument? > > > > Both atoms and genes are the result of constructed, scientific human > narratives. It seems to me that the psychological unpacking of how we > humans construct stories is critical for our collective survival at this > time. From climate change to vaccines to behavior genetics, it’s our > constructed and divergent storytelling that lay at the center of the storm. > A deep understanding of how we emerge and use language to construct our > stories seems highly salient to depolarizing society. > > -- > > Wishing you WELLth > > Gien > > Future Ancestor > > > > Pull a thread here and you’ll find it’s attached to the rest of the world. > - Nadeem Aslam > > > > www.stopresetgo.org > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.stopresetgo.org_&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=uoJ3BDErbFc-Rl-kStOpfwFglWLuGVx9pX6yPoM3uLc&s=e3gUspWg-dOstCHEqiEFOBGrFwMJtMEadNjykRz6cg0&e=> > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.earthwisecentre.org_tps&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=jN9XGuCW6NlqXqd5HevSVEtvxQWOLJhF2P--4kkJNT0&s=Dj29aeDbvWAPSO3r4WmglZVdsQz6NgJkg06umo0NkIw&e= > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.earthwisecentre.org_tps&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=uoJ3BDErbFc-Rl-kStOpfwFglWLuGVx9pX6yPoM3uLc&s=pajcYTzKQzM0XWXVWAhjXyxmwa8z8A83YivAtY5AY_0&e=> > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__tippingpointfestival.org&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=jN9XGuCW6NlqXqd5HevSVEtvxQWOLJhF2P--4kkJNT0&s=UPwZptEz7rna_hgo_sgzdM7qNFnpShZd0wDOt_HUozM&e= > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__tippingpointfestival.org_&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=uoJ3BDErbFc-Rl-kStOpfwFglWLuGVx9pX6yPoM3uLc&s=XiDkQVD2qFP-Z24ytKfRpBeNCnftqin5q5RoxjhM5uo&e=> > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.earthwisecentre.org_music-2Dfor-2Dchange&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=jN9XGuCW6NlqXqd5HevSVEtvxQWOLJhF2P--4kkJNT0&s=UGzjdf6WTbggDmttT6AdtVhbtfyD_n7baxkWL6Ti4_I&e= > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.earthwisecentre.org_music-2Dfor-2Dchange&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=uoJ3BDErbFc-Rl-kStOpfwFglWLuGVx9pX6yPoM3uLc&s=Pm0qMyngmftZSbHGPUbPnnKYDvWtW972GHge6m6g2N0&e=> > > www.futureliving.institute > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.futureliving.institute_&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=uoJ3BDErbFc-Rl-kStOpfwFglWLuGVx9pX6yPoM3uLc&s=sgEgaoBiMYZeaDWsbUThtz37WlJe5KIw9AEfT-qMrac&e=> > > [log in to unmask] > > intl ph: (1) 206 973-3924 > > SA ph: (+27) 79 589 6173 > > skype: geniepop > > > > ############################ > > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: > mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the > following link: > http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 > ############################ > > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: > mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the > following link: > http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 > ############################ To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1