Waldemar, Yes, you agree with Sandra Mitchell and also with most emergentist thinkers. You need different levels of analysis because they are non-reducible . they must be studied at their own level. In mature social sciences , you can't even publish research on a stream of literature until the units of analysis and the levels of analysis are properly justified theoretically. In young or corrupt social sciences, you skop the proper stuff and get straight on to propagandizing your biases and a priori junk theory, and avoid falsification tests of high quality. As it so happens, the level of maturity of social science is quite a bit behind physical and biological sciences... A huge clean up activity began recently, purging all suspersitutous leftovers from the 20th century.... and there's still a lot to do. Many social science streams went on decades or even generations before they fixed basic questions about units and methods and model validity. And the biggest task of our generation is meta-analysis and field condensation. We have far more need for theory than empirical -lost-in-the-weeds study... the gravity is towards synthesis... we need to make sense of mountains of iffy research with iffy modeling assumptions and badly designed studies . Lines of research need to be consolidated and truly re-evaluated aggressively this decade. Robert On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 2:22 PM Waldemar Schmidt <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > *CAUTION: *This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click links > or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is > safe. > ------------------------------ > Dear Colleagues: > > I would like to add to this discussion, within which each participant > appreciates some aspect of the issue/s at hand. > It seems we are stuck at a brick wall when it comes to the idea of the > "consciousness hard problem.” > > From my position (a natural “philosopher", allopathic physician, and > pathologist) we seem to be stuck trying to explicate consciousness by > considering “brain” function in terms of primary neurophysiology alone - > though we allude to a role being performed by “other” elements, such as > connectomes. > That is, trying to understand a complex physiologic function/product in > terms of neurons, glia, synapses, neurotransmitters, etc, alone, falls > short of our intents. > We can’t, for instance, understand and explain a bicycle in terms only of > it’s chain drive, can we? > > Minsky’s comment that "*mind is what brain does*," affords some insight. > Mind is a product of the brain, the body within which it lies (think 4E), > and the mind/body's interaction within the environment within which it > exists. > > From the internet: The brain is an organ but the mind isn't. The brain is > the physical place where the mind resides (sic). ... The mind is the *manifestations > of thought, perception, emotion, determination, memory and imagination* that > takes place within the brain. Mind is often used to refer especially to the > thought processes of reason. A simplistic but conceptually useful > definition - see also: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_mind&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=67UlyI_MKvy-1X9C6yt1ZTZIJ9OUGvuoE2z9fDXKFfg&s=HJ5Lm20m1vteSL8eXBcV7qaHXrd-4lE-UHYPLP_XkI4&e= > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_mind&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=RnaflREbMiuyptQ0XCN0dMqhiOZ7eki7jpTgOkmT4-I&s=y7hPlJr15LbVt7MmGk_nPmUx7WjS8iIR1nRM0-2g5ps&e=> > . > > But surely, far more than primary neurophysiology is involved in > generating consciousness, or “the mind,” for that matter. > A more expansive view of neurophysiology suggests that at least 9 or more > levels of neurophysiology are recognizable. > If we were to be able to understand and describe the interactions of all > levels of neurophysiology, perhaps the problem would not be so “hard.” > In seems the mind (and one of its components, consciousness) is a > non-physical construct arising from complex neurophysiological interactions. > > Please find attached an incomplete draft of an expanded iteration of the > recognizable levels of neurophysiology. > I include it in hopes that there may be some constructive criticism of > this concept. > It may also serve as an aid for those with sleep problems. > > Simply put, we have not reached a level of brain neurophysiology which > enables one to understand how the brain/body produces that product we > consider a “mind.” > The “mind” is, at least, an emergent non-physical physiologic product > arising in the brain as a result of the physical and non-physical > brain/mind/body/environment interactions - other compounding factors being > “equal." > > Best regards, > > Waldemar > > ############################ > > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: > mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the > following link: > http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 > > > > On Sep 7, 2021, at 6:14 AM, Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <[log in to unmask]> > wrote: > > Mike, > > I agree with what you say here. And my strong sense is that you and I > share a highly similar ontology (i.e., we are both emergent naturalists as > far as I can tell). > > Best, > Gregg > > > *From:* tree of knowledge system discussion < > [log in to unmask]> *On Behalf Of *Michael Mascolo > *Sent:* Tuesday, September 7, 2021 9:02 AM > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Subject:* Re: Materialism without Reductionism -- and why "mind" is a > troublesome concept... > > *CAUTION: *This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click links > or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is > safe. > ------------------------------ > Bruce, Robert, Gregg and All: > > I wonder if we might be talking passed each other. I wonder if we are > approaching the issue of reductionism with different meanings in mind. My > comments are mainly directed at the need for a theory of persons in which > consciousness is not seen as something that is non-material — that is, > spiritual or non-corporeal. If the emergent product has properties that > are not in the base elements, then that emergent product is irreducible. > So, yes, the experience of red is irreducible to the base elements (neural > firings). Nonetheless, I suggest that the emergent experience of red is > the equivalent of the novel organizational whole — the integrated > biological structures and processes that produce the experience of “red”. > We will not find red in the synapses; it the emergent product of the > network. > > A bicycle is not to be found in its parts; a bicycle is an emergent whole > that arises when the parts are put together and function as one unit. The > musical tone of the violin is not to be found in the violin, but in the > playing of this song by this master at this time — and then heard by this > person with this level of sophistication, etc. The tone of is an emergent > equivalent, I suggest, of the whole. This is an issue of parts and wholes, > I think. > > Bruce and Robert seem to be speaking of a different sense of reductionism > — whether the experience of redness can be, in some sense, objectively > identified (they might be able to clarify my understanding of their > positions here) in those bodily processes. In my view, it can’t! The > experience of red is indeed irreducible. And the reason that the experience > of red cannot be reduced to an objective characterization is that…well… > objective — that is “third person” characterizations — do not exhaust the > ways we come to know. We cannot know “objectively” that this or that brain > state provides the neurobiological substrata of the experiencing of red > independent of the first and second person frames of reference. First > person experience is not reducible to third person observation. (In fact, > I would argue that BOTH first and third person descriptions of the world > RELY UPON second person, shared intersubjective categories. Without shared > intersubjective categories, we would have not way to make first and third > person experiences intelligible). > > Given this, I am wondering if there is really disagreement here. Brian, > Robert, Gregg and Mike all seem to agree in some sense of emergence in > order to explain the origins of experience; we seem to agree that no > “objective” identification of “the experience of red” in the brain is > possible (or even makes sense). I imagine that we might agree that given > the intersubjective category “red” — one that we create by coordinating our > use of the word “red” with our experiences-of-the-world — that is, we agree > that the word “red” correspond to the range of colors that we point to in > this object, that one, that one and that one — we might be able to identify > third person pattens of biological activity that are the equivalent —that > correspond to or are the biological substrata for — experiencing red. Do > we? If not, where do we disagree? > > My Best, > > Mike > > > *Michael F. Mascolo, Ph.D.* > Academic Director, Compass Program > Professor, Department of Psychology > Merrimack College, North Andover, MA 01845 > 978.837.3503 (office) > 978.979.8745 (cell) > > Bridging Political Divides Website: Creating Common Ground > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.creatingcommonground.org&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=rbPn97OJkIqY8rMJarKmQ_7kDYu1jO-bJCI0RpP3AV8&s=CczBxS8Rr4DHlYzezh04KIvWyVeN2WlV13K70fkyOxI&e=> > Blog: Values Matter > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.psychologytoday.com_us_blog_values-2Dmatter&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=rbPn97OJkIqY8rMJarKmQ_7kDYu1jO-bJCI0RpP3AV8&s=FNEbpp-8IAlesjHQysJn_Ip21LpYdZgE2yolctKjPvc&e=> > Journal: Pedagogy and the Human Sciences > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__scholarworks.merrimack.edu_phs_&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=rbPn97OJkIqY8rMJarKmQ_7kDYu1jO-bJCI0RpP3AV8&s=OXGhiMN7Lv9Q1KoI1OvtKy-vOphl6IFyb7hd2Pxi6P4&e=> > Author and Coaching Website: www.michaelmascolo.com > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.michaelmascolo.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=rbPn97OJkIqY8rMJarKmQ_7kDYu1jO-bJCI0RpP3AV8&s=UMoTjRUPKidRVRU48xT7yyH4XlXA6wmlLuLuYCQSd7g&e=> > Academia Home Page > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__merrimack.academia.edu_MichaelMascolo&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=rbPn97OJkIqY8rMJarKmQ_7kDYu1jO-bJCI0RpP3AV8&s=0RwemxFm6ewXMLr6OWLVoYdXB625_5epf3j58u2VkwE&e=> > Constructivist Meetup Series > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.constructivistmeetup.org&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=rbPn97OJkIqY8rMJarKmQ_7kDYu1jO-bJCI0RpP3AV8&s=LdNqV5mwJu8LeflSGsC9BN5txZEKMI75plcliMYElcw&e=> > > Things move, persons act. -- Kenneth Burke > If it's not worth doing, it's not worth doing well. -- Donald Hebb > > > On Sep 7, 2021, at 7:04 AM, ryanrc111 <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > But in my understanding, the 'hard problem' is deemed a hard problem, > not because agent-like behaviors can emerge in complex systems -- that's > all still third-person, objective description and focus; still a > behavior-orientation. The hard problem is a hard problem because there > seems to be no objective explanation of how or why any of that would lead > to first-person, qualitative feeling or experience. > > > ############################ > > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: > mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the > following link: > http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 > ############################ > > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: > mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the > following link: > http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 > > > ############################ > > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: > mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the > following link: > http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 > ############################ To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1