############################Hi Timothy,
FYI, virtually no one is a materialist who insists on solid particles. That is now known to be wrong and the vast majority of philosophers and physicists are technically “physicalists” which is different than old school materialism, which is what you are describing with solid particles. That is because both the nature of the Big Bang (see here for how I frame this) and quantum field theory (see this Royal Institute lecture by David Tong) put the concepts of physical/kinetic/potential/mass energy at the base, such that elementary particles are framed as patterned fluctuations in quantum fields. This is description is true of someone like Carroll.
Billiard ball materialism of classic Newtonian days was killed by the revolutions in physics and was dead by the 1930s. The base of physics is fields and energy-information.
Best,Gregg
From: theory of knowledge society discussion <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of T.R. Pickerill
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2021 11:28 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: TOK Sean Carroll almost gets the key concept for emergence
CAUTION: This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.
I would say that if you are a materialist who insists on solid particles instead of standing waves and can only see a dualism when speaking of consciousness then you just won't get anywhere.
My stand is that the All, or what is called by some Mind, is waves and that the relationships between waves and their harmonics is in fact the origin of Qualia and that this system of Space, Field/Mind, Energy/Source, Self, Other, Number, Relationship/Harmonics is the stuff of Consciousness. What we call Anthropocentric Consciousness is one among possibly many forms or stages of Consciousness as the totalCosmos/localUniverse Evolves in self-organization and autopoietic growth. What we are experiencing is not emergent, it is evolved just as the organization of matter so to the relationships and the meaning which comes from the qualia of these relationships.
His comment about not changing the laws of physics to deal/fit consciousness is a dead end road block for his ability to think on this subject I would also say.
Thanks for the link.
Timothy Rollin Pickerill
Business - http://www.AudioVideoArts.com/
Photography - http://instagram.com/pickerillphotography/
646-299-4173 (cell)
On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 5:53 PM William McCartan <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
CAUTION: This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.
What a fantastic conversation Gregg, really insightful, informative and enjoyable.
Thank you for sharing, have a great night
From: theory of knowledge society discussion <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2021 3:21:39 PM
To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: TOK Sean Carroll almost gets the key concept for emergence
Hi Folks,
This is for geeks interested in the problem of emergence:
I finished the Carroll-Seth podcast which is mostly on emergence, and somewhat on consciousness. I wrote the list a few days ago saying this was a bit disappointing given the start and the remarkable confusion and floundering laying out the situation. However, listening to the back half of the conversation I found that Seth and Carroll were very close to arriving at what I considered to be the central issue dealing with emergence. This is the difference of what happens at the “joint points” of Life, Mind and Culture. That is, there are some variants of emergence going from particles to atoms to molecules, we can frame these as emergence within a dimension of complexification. However, the key is the jumps into new dimensions and what it means.
In this exchange, they are talking about Seth’s approach to framing systems in terms of their macro- or “coarse-grained” states and arguing that macro- or coarse-grained forms might play a role in causing things to happen in the world. The key to see why this is definitely the case, is to focus on how observers perceive the world. That is, we perceive coarse grained forms. (More accurately, we obtain partial sense data that then is matched to expectations/schema, but that is irrelevant). It is because observers perceive forms that coarse grained forms have causal impacts on the world, at least at the level of Life, Mind, and Culture.
What is super cool in this exchange is that Sean Carroll sort of sees this. The clip is from 56 minutes to about 1 hour 1 minute.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hvGpG0KT3ZbnxzA6p9EEs9alzwSz0-J-/view?usp=sharing
He explicitly says something along the lines that, “Hmmm, if I just see the coarse grained form, then doesn’t that play a causal role in what I do”. Unfortunately, Seth does not pick up on what Carroll is laying down. He, like so many people, is thinking about solving the emergence property problem from within. However, it is solved by understanding information processing and communication between observing detecting systems, precisely because they operate on the inFORMational patterns they detect. And, because of that, we know that it is the coarse grained patterns that play a causal role in the perception and because of that, we know that there is a new kind of causal emergence in the world when we get living, mental, and cultural information processing and communication networks.
This is important because, as this podcast highlights, the matter-mind relation is tangled up in understanding the nature of emergence.
Best,
Gregg
___________________________________________
Gregg Henriques, Ph.D.
Professor
Department of Graduate Psychology
216 Johnston Hall
MSC 7401
James Madison University
Harrisonburg, VA 22807
(540) 568-7857 (phone)
(540) 568-4747 (fax)
Be that which enhances dignity and well-being with integrity.Check out the Unified Theory Of Knowledge homepage at:
https://www.unifiedtheoryofknowledge.org/
############################
To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1
############################
To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1
############################
To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1
To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1
To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1