I guess my frustration tends to be with the lack of standardization or the preservation of standardized practices as they are integrated into clinical practice. This has led to the issue of "McMindfulness" where a few meditative principles are (seemingly) arbitrarily applied to an existing treatment but we then all have different definitions for what actually is the same thing, as compared to varied definitions and stages for reaching/experiencing certain phenomenological qualities or gradations of awareness and sense of connectedness, etc. For example, I've been doing daily shamatha for probably 5 or 6 years now and have never attained any mystical experiences from it, I had reality-bending experiences practicing self-abidance and self-inquiry the first times I truly effectively practiced them. As you're saying TR, this is a developmental process, but even between practices. Shamatha isn't for awakening per say, it's a very basic, orienting, and purely attentional in practice, so it's no surprise that after years of practice (and yes you have to get better at these basics too) I wasn't having a profound experience, but I was calmer and more peaceful. Self-inquiry blew the door that is my ego off its hinges. Totally destroyed me, never had a chance. As a clinician, I probably want my clients to have a profound experience, ultimately we can say with a degree of objectivity that self-actualizing would be in the best interest of most individuals. I would never have one of my clients begin with self-inquiry, why? BEcause they haven't yet learned how to pay attention. They may understand the logic of thought watching and non-identification, but that is still just an illusory cognition if they can't actually watch their thoughts or de-identify. That doesn't even bring into account that for some a highly dissociative meditation like self-inquiry could bring on purely dysfunctional psychotic experiences, I will state that confidently, whereas for others simply attending to their breath or watching their thoughts is so anxiety-provoking or antagonizing that they become dysregulated because they weren't even ready for that yet. Tonglen is another example where the foolish clinician might have a client take in the suffering of others and give out compassion and love, thinking they're simply doing LMK, but could easily give that instruction to the narcissistic or borderline client who will use that practice to make themselves a martyr and feed their own ego in a dysfunctional way, not to mention the severely depressed client that won't feel the positive feelings and will ruminate on taking in the negatives. These are all things specific to practices that are increasingly commonplace in any mindfulness-based clinician's repertoire, which in and of itself is a good thing, the problem is that they don't have the practice or the experiential understanding to be able to combine the elements of meditative practice and therapeutic intervention in a meaningful way that will progress the client along their individual line of development. I have seen this play out too many times and result in reinforcement of the idea that the underlying theory is flawed because someone got triggered during a mindfulness exercise or their anxiety worsened when they focused on their breath because they could hear their heartbeat and had a panic attack or something the clinician should have accounted for and would have if they knew what they were doing. Just like any other intervention, meditation and mindfulness can do as much harm as they can good depending on how they're done. It's another pigeonholing mistake that psychology tends to make a lot. Regards, Nicholas G. Lattanzio, Psy.D. On Tue, Dec 21, 2021 at 1:41 PM T.R. Pickerill <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > *CAUTION: *This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click links > or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is > safe. > ------------------------------ > Nicholas, not only are they standardized they are also often linked in a > chain of development - do practice A for a year or more, then do practice B > until ____, then proceed, etc. This is the case in Vajrayana practice for > instance - Ngondro has 4 stages of development practice before accessing > the higher tantric (Union) practices. > Cheers > > And happy Yule everyone. > > On Tue, Dec 21, 2021 at 1:21 PM Nicholas Lattanzio <[log in to unmask]> > wrote: > >> *CAUTION: *This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click links >> or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is >> safe. >> ------------------------------ >> Bruce, >> >> With your expertise in integral and with Eastern thought and practice, I >> would be interested to converse with you at some point about the clinical >> applications of some of these practices. The clinical application of the >> Advaitist meditation Self-Inquiry was the topic of my dissertation, and in >> researching for that I found many publishings advocating the use of a >> variety of methods, and while of course standardization of these practices >> from a Western perspective is not going to be a great reflection of the >> true practice in its culture, but aside from that many of these practices >> (e.g., most Zen schools) are extremely standardized; yet the literature >> does not reflect it. >> >> I feel in therapy the I am-Am is distinction is nearly identical to the >> distinction in acceptance and commitment therapy's Self--as-content vs >> self-as-context (although as you noted even there the lines between content >> and context as Pure Awareness vary quite widely). I have found in my work >> that such a distinction can bring about profound transformations when one >> defuses/unhooks/shifts/etc. from larger schemas and self-systems, and into >> more "spiritual" realms, which is where I particularly wonder what you >> think about where, as a clinician, should the line be drawn in how far we >> take a client on the spiritual aspect of the therapeutic journey, which >> cannot be factored out through standardization if the intervention is to >> remain valid and effective. Now I would never try to "wake someone up" to >> anything outside of what is clinically necessary, which likely does not >> require full self-realization or those second tier consciousnesses to do, >> but does that mean it shouldn't happen? I'm just wondering your opinion (I >> will get Loch Kelly's book). >> >> For the purpose of descriptive metaphysics, I see their relevance of I >> am-Am is as essentially the 1st person vs 3rd person or UL vs UR >> epistemologies. But, as I think you eluded to, the applications for Am is >> are by definition content-dependent, which in my mind unify the two if one >> concedes the inevitability of an awareness/consciousness-based ground of >> being, though that's a different discussion almost entirely. >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Nicholas G. Lattanzio, Psy.D. >> >> >> On Tue, Dec 21, 2021 at 11:44 AM Bruce Alderman <[log in to unmask]> >> wrote: >> >>> *CAUTION: *This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click >>> links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the >>> content is safe. >>> ------------------------------ >>> Hi, Gregg, I really appreciated this article, and I'm glad (with your >>> credentials) you're sharing this kind of thing on PT. For those who go >>> into it, there are several layers or gradations of experience and insight >>> that go with the "am is" -- meaning, some traditions draw distinctions >>> between grosser and subtler levels of it. Dream and sleep yogas are one >>> way to get at these subtle meanings (both of which just involve working >>> with 'awareness' in dream and deep sleep states). >>> >>> But for a very practical, innovative approach, rooted both in some of >>> the highest contemplative practices but also contemporary psychological >>> awareness, I'd recommend the book, "Shift into Freedom" by Loch Kelly. He >>> provides a lot of interesting exercises and tips for 'unhooking' from the >>> self-related stream and exploring different dimensions (and implications, >>> perceptual and psychological) of the 'am is.' >>> >>> (His use of "shift" provides a nice, though I think not directly >>> related, echo to the work you've been doing with Rob Scott. I'm going to >>> be talking again with Rob very soon!) >>> >>> Best, >>> B. >>> >>> On Sat, Dec 18, 2021 at 11:44 AM Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx < >>> [log in to unmask]> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Folks, >>>> >>>> I put up this PT blog today on two streams of consciousness, the Self >>>> Stream (I am) and the Pure Awareness Stream (Am Is). >>>> >>>> >>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.psychologytoday.com_us_blog_theory-2Dknowledge_202112_two-2Dstreams-2Dconscious-2Dawareness&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=CThkJW_41ty4h790WFsocRmI3zh-stdxKuRUiNyLcA8&s=UP2qwb3lLO4ADu0iJJE_SawPd50wdSOMvgGu86v2JJE&e= >>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.psychologytoday.com_us_blog_theory-2Dknowledge_202112_two-2Dstreams-2Dconscious-2Dawareness&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=qmDtcv3pAvG2JAHQLvszlAtBKtdpGTUJtWZdEipXO-Q&s=Eki4AM1NL2FC6xSOsMfVtcFt4nMBVEFQk38VgTKcrcI&e=> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Special thanks to Rob Scott for his work and guidance in this area, >>>> G >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ___________________________________________ >>>> >>>> Gregg Henriques, Ph.D. >>>> Professor >>>> Department of Graduate Psychology >>>> 216 Johnston Hall >>>> MSC 7401 >>>> James Madison University >>>> Harrisonburg, VA 22807 >>>> (540) 568-7857 (phone) >>>> (540) 568-4747 (fax) >>>> >>>> >>>> *Be that which enhances dignity and well-being with integrity.* >>>> >>>> Check out the Unified Theory Of Knowledge homepage at: >>>> >>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.unifiedtheoryofknowledge.org_&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=CThkJW_41ty4h790WFsocRmI3zh-stdxKuRUiNyLcA8&s=0wJEDDIAmaZQiEDawnGF92-h7IQf39hvURoAfHYmcoQ&e= >>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.unifiedtheoryofknowledge.org_&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=qmDtcv3pAvG2JAHQLvszlAtBKtdpGTUJtWZdEipXO-Q&s=gXCRv02D3Qh-pwwjCWHSqg-2bMilJfARdYBAlfpRPq0&e=> >>>> >>>> >>>> ############################ >>>> >>>> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: >>>> mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the >>>> following link: >>>> http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 >>>> >>> ############################ >>> >>> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: >>> mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the >>> following link: >>> http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 >>> >> ############################ >> >> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: >> mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the >> following link: >> http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 >> > -- > > Timothy Rollin Pickerill > Business - 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