Hi Alex, Thank you for the inspiring essay. This: "Without resistance, power has no medium to express itself, and is thus mere potentialenergy. Power requires the presence of an other against which to determine itself…” is very Sartrian. He states in Being and Nothingness, “Without resistance there is no freedom." Freedom requires something to push up against; it requires there to be something to be free of. And, for Satre, freedom isn’t something we posses, its something we do. I found your concept of “zoned” highly intriguing, but I don’t see it the same way you do. I can accept that: "This is the intuitive inertia of “the zone”, in which freed will itself becomes inertial. This absence of deliberation is the holy grail of performance enhancement.” But I don’t see that state as choiceness, or as you say, an absence of deliberation. As you agree, we intentionally make great efforts to bring ourselves to achieve the “zoned” point of behavior. But my thought is that once we are in that zone we are very actively making choices, just not being reflective about the choices we are making. But we arrived there with dedicated intention and at great cost. It is all of the research I have done that is within me for use while I am writing. It is the mastery of music and the instrument that provides the jazz player with a breadth of choices while improvising, it is the practiced athleticism that dancers use to complete their movements. For every highly-trained in-the-zone performer it is the years of practice, training, dedication, choices, that leads to intended good inertia. Two points; I think we get dragged into seeing the expression of free behavior in a false light because of those who ague against agent autonomy with straw-man arguments. They like to argue, "could you have done otherwise,” without ever providing a clear and reasonable definition of what choosing is. It’s only in the simplest of behaviors that our choices are made at a single instant of doing. Our complicated behaviors are made up from layers of choices that took days, months, years to arrive at. They are made up of dense histories of prior choices, all made with the intent to change who we are so that we can eventually make intended good inertia choices without reflection. So, the choices made by someone in the zone aren’t simply made while engaged in our intended good inertia choices, they are made up of years of struggle to get to that point. What is missing from "could you have done otherwise,” is otherwise from when? From just now? Likely not, but that means nothing. From years ago when we began the journeys that brought us to this point, like so. No one can prove otherwise. My second point is, much too much is made of the requirement that a free choice must be a consciously reflective choice. As you point out, when we are purposely not conscious of our choices is when we are engaged in our best intended good inertia choices (okay, I added “ choices” to your claim). Or, tied to what I said above, we were consciously reflective at many points during the long complex histories within those intended good inertia choices. Again, I found great value in how you couched this problem, I just see it from another angle. Thank you kindly, Peter Peter Lloyd Jones 562-209-4080 [log in to unmask] Sent by determined causes that no amount of will is able to thwart. > On Dec 15, 2021, at 7:24 PM, Alex Ebert <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > CAUTION: This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. > Dear Gregg, all, I found a framing I like for a “free will“, which disambiguates will/freed will as potential/kinetic, and introduces psychic inertia as the foil. > Wrote it up here. > Cheers > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__badguru.substack.com_p_will-2Dwill-2Dwill-3Futm-5Fcampaign-3Dpost-26utm-5Fmedium-3Dweb-26utm-5Fsource-3Ddirect&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=EzrO5KoFQoebSPX9EMi5rFxQyw5-CKaXN5utKZEHCIg&s=M0-Dgv2WLyzcL1dimEcq-fvbjWZPdBtwLfSqvN7PCjc&e= <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__badguru.substack.com_p_will-2Dwill-2Dwill-3Futm-5Fcampaign-3Dpost-26utm-5Fmedium-3Dweb-26utm-5Fsource-3Ddirect&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=n1EZhtnR334UWuRT-IdnWOLEp-osMGrAEl8pCM9zf7A&s=rQDV2wKjZezXLzl8WmjJNVWZ386vaweSZ2HQZBlIhgE&e=> > > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Dec 13, 2021, at 2:20 PM, Peter Lloyd Jones <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >> >> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. >> Gregg, >> I am not a fan of that debate either, so I resist mentioning it when possible. It is though in my signature as a joke, both about determinism and will. >> >> Unfortunately, there are numerous people arguing the merits of determinism, its sister hard incompatibiliism, Stawson’s clever version of determinism that’s solely about the past, which follows us today as steadily as yesterday always does, and so on, most of them often appealing (unjustifiably) to hard science. >> >> It is exactly those leaps across the "enlightenment gap” that disturb me. So, from a philosophical point of view I must push back on them when necessary, while I trust you with the larger picture. >> Peter >> >> >> Peter Lloyd Jones >> 562-209-4080 >> [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> >> >> Sent by determined causes that no amount of will is able to thwart. >> >> >> >>> On Dec 13, 2021, at 2:29 PM, Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: >>> >>> Peter, >>> I am not a fan at all of the “free will versus determinism” debate. I don’t find that to be a useful frame at all. I first point to the Enlightenment Gap to argue that we have very poorly framed notions about the proper relationships between matter and mind. >>> >>> I believe I am a “fourth dimensional entity”. That is, I operate on the Culture-Person plane of existence, the plane of self-conscious justification. I am a strange loop of causation relative to cause-effect relations at the Matter dimension. Descriptively, I clearly make choices. That is, there are things that are under my domain of self-control that I purposefully impact. For example, I have the freedom to respond to this email. I do not have the freedom to choose to levitate above my chair or eliminate the COVID 19 virus from the earth. >>> >>> The egoic narrator/persona is a justifying system that is about regulating affect and impulse and action and determining what is justifiable and what is not. That is its structural functional organization. I seek to be “self-determined” in the sense that I attempt to coherently integrate and organize my bodily, animalistic, primate, and environmental structures toward adaptive living (or dignity and well-being with integrity or wisdom energy). >>> >>> Best, >>> Gregg >>> >>> From: theory of knowledge society discussion <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> On Behalf Of Peter Lloyd Jones >>> Sent: Monday, December 13, 2021 1:27 PM >>> To: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> >>> Subject: Re: TOK Blog what is a person? >>> >>> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. >>> Gregg, >>> Thank you for sharing. >>> >>> I am happy to see how comfortable Christian Smith is with defending free will. "By person I mean a conscious, reflective, embodied, self-transcending center of subjective experience, durable identity <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.psychologytoday.com_us_basics_identity&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=1DWrQ8qeTWPaDtOVIPKt6gygFD1zNMfRcwwVFa2sFYw&s=qPxbWNzJlVAFl2pIrl3RHMM9OhVi_tLJqwT_M2n5aLY&e=>, ...who—as the efficient cause of his or her own responsible actions and interactions…" >>> >>> You also quoted Edward O Wilson, who I didn’t understand very well 40 years ago. His fairly recent book The Meaning of Human Existence nicely outlines his faith in human autonomy of choice. Without freedom, Wilson contends, a conscious mind would be without purpose. Coming from a man of science, this is refreshing. >>> >>> Within the last few years I reread BF Skinner’s philosophy of behaviorism, About Behaviorism, and Beyond Freedom & Dignity. In this books Skinner claims we do not have free will, saying that we are shaped by the contingencies of our environment and the only means for changing one’s behavior is to change their environment. He then concedes that we can change our own environments, serving as controller of our behavior. I change my environment every time I read a book. Go for a walk. Ask someone a question... >>> >>> My question to you, do you differ with Smith’s and Wilson's defense of free will? >>> Thank you again, >>> Peter >>> >>> Peter Lloyd Jones >>> 562-209-4080 >>> [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> >>> >>> Sent by determined causes that no amount of will is able to thwart. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Dec 10, 2021, at 3:58 PM, Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi TOK Folks, >>> Please check out this blog I put up today on the ontology of human persons: >>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.psychologytoday.com_us_blog_theory-2Dknowledge_202112_what-2Dit-2Dmeans-2Dbe-2Dhuman-2Dperson&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=EzrO5KoFQoebSPX9EMi5rFxQyw5-CKaXN5utKZEHCIg&s=NNagZNI3YiIh9VeK32P8c2l_taCt_2orOfaLBjOYNu0&e= <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.psychologytoday.com_us_blog_theory-2Dknowledge_202112_what-2Dit-2Dmeans-2Dbe-2Dhuman-2Dperson&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=1DWrQ8qeTWPaDtOVIPKt6gygFD1zNMfRcwwVFa2sFYw&s=OXqmi_DzMmW-1nKipZkUud0Qh7bmbkfwBArPEQTbEPM&e=> >>> >>> >>> ___________________________________________ >>> Gregg Henriques, Ph.D. >>> Professor >>> Department of Graduate Psychology >>> 216 Johnston Hall >>> MSC 7401 >>> James Madison University >>> Harrisonburg, VA 22807 >>> (540) 568-7857 (phone) >>> (540) 568-4747 (fax) >>> >>> Be that which enhances dignity and well-being with integrity. >>> >>> Check out the Unified Theory Of Knowledge homepage at: >>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.unifiedtheoryofknowledge.org_&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=EzrO5KoFQoebSPX9EMi5rFxQyw5-CKaXN5utKZEHCIg&s=8dApUd_bQu-6P8xeMMt5NCh_q1Qz41gf6QK3EhtDcCE&e= <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.unifiedtheoryofknowledge.org_&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=1DWrQ8qeTWPaDtOVIPKt6gygFD1zNMfRcwwVFa2sFYw&s=EWVf8A1arQ-etnnmqvMeeC9ggRhBQ3H1NS0lTc5JDtc&e=> >>> >>> ############################ >>> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:mailto:[log in to unmask]> or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 <http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1> >>> >>> ############################ >>> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:mailto:[log in to unmask]> or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 <http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1>############################ >>> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:mailto:[log in to unmask]> or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 <http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1> >> ############################ >> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:mailto:[log in to unmask]> or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 <http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1>############################ > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:mailto:[log in to unmask]> or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 <http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1> ############################ To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1