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Thanks for all this.

My understanding is that:

At 32,000 genes, the carrot genome is a good deal longer than that of humans (somewhere between 20,000 and 25,000 genes). 

Therefore I am curious about the Life complexity metric of genomic complexity, C.

Is the complexity different from the number of genes in the genome?

If so, how is it measured?

Also, I think of entropy as the typically used measure of “disorder” (often interpreted as complexity).

How does entropy compare to free energy as a measure of complexity?

Thanks,

Lee Beaumont 

On Jan 20, 2022, at 7:41 PM, Brandon Norgaard <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

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Thanks Brendan.  A few months ago, I gave a presentation at one of your book club events of a table I put together starting from Gregg’s Periodic Table of Behavior (PTB) and added content from his discussion with Jordan Hall and also from some other sources such as the Conscious Evolution podcast.  I just added the content from your first message and I now have the table publicly available for everyone to view and add comments:

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AkQYgE9O3J2GKVwCiBCVCbhVX88-TOrO/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=117491835000953037563&rtpof=true&sd=true

 

I figure something like this could be published officially somewhere, after it’s cleaned up as necessary, giving credit to the parties who created the content.  All I did was put it together into a single table.

 

Regarding the metric of socio-cultural evolution, I’m not sure if MHC is the right one, or at least it seems that is only part of the picture.  I remember the Chomsky Hierarchy also gives a nested hierarchy of symbolic meaning in languages.  Some animals can communicate only at the regular expression level, some at the context-free grammar level, and we humans have recursively enumerable communicative capability.  Also within this we have many levels of complexity of cultural codes, which has some relation to MHC, but there is more to it.  A person can be at a moderate level of MHC with regard to their mental capability while also operating within a highly complex cultural code.  Centuries ago, some people had high MHC while operating within a simpler cultural code than we have now.  I have to figure that it is the complexity of the cultural code that is the real metric here.  Any given cultural code would seem to have some level of MHC baked into it, but I’m thinking that there should be some metric that would be an enhancement of the Chomsky Hierarchy that would measure the complexity of the cultural code itself.  Essentially, this would measure the complexity of language games within a given culture and symbol set (spoken, written, facial expressions, gestures, etc.)  The Chomsky Hierarchy only has recursively enumerable as the top level, but I have to figure there are many subdivisions within that.  Does anyone know who has done work on this?    

 

Brandon

 

From: theory of knowledge society discussion <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Bruce Alderman
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2022 12:27 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: ToK Complexity Metrics?

 

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The same year Wilber published SES, Henryk Skolimowski published a book arguing that we are at a time between worldviews -- represented as a 'dip' and 'chaotic tangle' between plateaus of dominant worldviews/paradigms -- and proposed the next emergent view will be holistic, participatory, and evolutionary (whatever we name it; some of his prior worldview names are 'Theos' and 'Mechanos').  One of his arguments in the book is that evolution reveals a long trajectory of gradually increasing sensitivity -- of evolving modes, degrees, etc, of prehension, awareness, and 'participation' that entities use to interface with the rest of reality.  And a key idea, somewhat anticipating Wilber's "W-5" turn, is that we need to view this evolution of sensitivity in enactive terms, that evolution demonstrates a wandering but not directionless unfolding of greater, more complex ways that entities participatorily 'enact' their worlds.

 

On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 12:05 PM Nicholas Lattanzio <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

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I think Major Histocompatability Complex, which from my understanding are proteins that help the immune system adapt. I believe they measure it in making vaccines, and use a great deal of statistical information to generate probabilistic outcomes. But that's all self-education from articles I read like 2 years ago. I could be totally wrong amd/or they could be talking about something else.

Regards,

Nicholas G. Lattanzio, Psy.D.

 

On Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 1:56 PM Zachary Stein <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

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Jim Rutt Show: On Hierarchical Complexity: https://www.jimruttshow.com/zak-stein-4/

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_of_hierarchical_complexity

 

On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 2:27 PM Waldemar Schmidt <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

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Someone, please clarify (for me) what MHC means. 

 

On Jan 20, 2022, at 9:42 AM, Zachary Stein <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

 

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You're on you something Brendan,  

 

Many thinkers 

  have been on the same scent. 

 

Aside from e.g., Wilber's 

 use of Laszlo et al

 in *Sex, Ecology Spirtuality;* 

 See also, for example, 

  less well known works

  like Elliot Jaques'

  *The Life and Behavior 

    of Living Organisms.*

 

Everyone has been asking: 

 Can the whole of evolution 

  be placed along 

  a single objective axis 

  of directionality? 

 

Multiple, level-specific "measures," 

  yes, ok, *and*

   there are deep structural isomorphisms 

   across/between levels. 

 

Piaget & Co.

  can be read as suggesting 

  that what we call MHC

  (Fischer's Skill Levels)

  are a local manifestation 

  of a cosmic evolutionary process

  occuring at all levels: 

  matter, life, and mind. 

 

Quite a claim. 

 

Problematic, 

  but also illuminating 

  and insightful. 

 

It is to say, 

  aside from space, time, etc

  there is another universally measurable 

  dimension involving (forgive the jargon)   

   *non-abirtary iterations   

    of complex emergence 

    and hierarchical integration*

 

"The many become one, 

 and are increased by one."

  As Whitehead would say. 

 

This is the many stepped 

 "stairway" of evolution

  giving a sense 

  that things are "going somewhere"

    rather than just meandering and 

    arbitrarily enduring through time. 

 

But, of course, 

  even if we accept all that 

  what does it buy us? 

 

Does it buy us what we want?

 

I think it buys a great deal, 

  some of it we want 

 (some of it we don't know what to do with);

  But this second step

  of "who cares/so what?"

  is not trivial.

 

zak

 

On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 10:45 AM Brendan Graham Dempsey <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

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Hi all, 

 

Have been considering the ToK through the complexification lens and wondering what the specific quantitative metrics might be in each domain of complexification. Each new information system would complexify along its own trajectory, meaning the specific metric used to measure it would be different than the one before. Moreover, each metric would be dependent upon and relate to the ones on which it rests. Here's what I was playing with:

MATTER: Cosmic evolution – energy (metric: free energy rate density, Øm)
LIFE: Biological evolution – genetic information (metric: “physical [genomic] complexity”, C)
MIND: Consciousness evolution – nervous system integration (metric: integrated information, Ø)
CULTURE: Cultural evolution – linguistic justification systems (metric: hierarchical task complexity, MHC)

 

At the level of matter, I think the work of Eric Chaisson on cosmic evolution is helpful, and he uses the free energy rate density (Øm) as his metric.

At the level of life, some preliminary searches yielded genomic complexity (C) as a potential metric, as according to the work of Adami, Ofria, and Collier (2003), but I suspect there is better/more recent work on measuring biological complexity.

At the level of mind, I was wondering whether IIT would be the best fit, which uses the metric of Ø of increasing sentience.

Finally, at the level of culture, I'm intrigued by the potential for the Model of Hierarchical Complexity to measure justification systems and other cultural phenomena.

 

Again, each new metric would map onto the other, such that Øm would increase as C increased as Ø increased as MHC increased. That's a hypothesis, anyway.

 

Perhaps I'm re-inventing the wheel here, so let me know if there's already work that's done this. But I wanted to hear people's perspectives on the prospect of identifying different complexity metrics for each unique level of the stack.

 

Cheers,

Brendan

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