Thank you both for your insights and reflections! Definitely a book I will read too, fairly synchronistic that the author is the same teacher Bruce lived with! And yes Bruce, if youre referring to Joe Dispenza as that source I share your skepticism. It was some fairly random meditation with a lot of strong claims about activating tue pineal gland and other mytho-romantic idealizations. Regardless, I ended up having this experience, which I'm not sure fits neatly into the Tibetan categories, except possibly as clarity due to the profound experience of deidentification (though not the most "I" have felt). I actually had a clear light dream, or as I know it a White Dream (I think it's more of a research term)tern, when I was in my undergraduate schooling. It was nothing, absolute void, no sense of time whatsoever, but definitely a stable experience of awareness. Only in referencing it can I generally speak to the Absolute Knowing that I AM that simply was. Interestingly that textbook White Dream was directly preceded by a fairly lucid dream in which I had an hours long conversation with some elderly lady. I can't say for sure, but if I had to guess it was my grandmother who passed when I was 4 or 5, but for all I know it was some random fictionalized person. I do look back at that conversation as one I took something big away from, I don't remember the conversation at all aside from a clear instruction that I "can't stop yet." Which has always been a source of inspiration for me though I don't know it's specific referant. That dream ended with the roof collapsing too a lava-like fire and then boom, just nothing. There may have been a thought about whether or not I was dead as the dream content transitioned. These kinds of experiences fascinate the hell out of me. I'd love to hear some of yours and others experiences along these lines too! Regards, Nicholas G. Lattanzio, Psy.D. On Fri, Mar 11, 2022, 12:41 PM Tim Pickerill <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > *CAUTION: *This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click links > or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is > safe. > ------------------------------ > Bruce I know you have done a lot of work with this in particular - I have > stayed clear from it as I have had horrible insomnia for years which > acupuncture thankfully fixed, clear light is enough for me - can you maybe > describe some of your experiences? > > > On Fri, Mar 11, 2022 at 1:35 PM Bruce Alderman <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > >> *CAUTION: *This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click links >> or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is >> safe. >> ------------------------------ >> Yes, that is the teacher at whose house I was living. >> >> On Fri, Mar 11, 2022 at 10:33 AM Tim Pickerill <[log in to unmask]> >> wrote: >> >>> *CAUTION: *This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click >>> links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the >>> content is safe. >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.abebooks.com_products_isbn_9781559391016-3Fcm-5Fsp-3Dbdp-2D-5F-2DISBN13-2D-5F-2DPLP&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=Bng4jADXHP_8b5NvsE85pTtKno-HeOpnCDAQ-jZKizc&s=sxXOE3RTLJ9Qjz4SHGf1RsTD0khyAUtcsXPUndLrm50&e= >>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.abebooks.com_products_isbn_9781559391016-3Fcm-5Fsp-3Dbdp-2D-5F-2DISBN13-2D-5F-2DPLP&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=-TkHvglgw6YzTaDdBiDB_l_JL6uooEt6k8Gxng1arWw&s=NP4Zxvz8zQ6_S_2LJUmZT0yhheMhZk-h569Dt-H0MrE&e=> >>> >>> I very much recommend this book which describes the practice- basically >>> what you described but formalized as a practice. >>> T >>> >>> On Fri, Mar 11, 2022 at 12:17 PM Tim Pickerill <[log in to unmask]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Very cool Nick, I would recommend checking out Tibetan teachings on >>>> this. As Bruce described there are well developed practices for this which >>>> I do not believe you need to belong to a sect in order to practice. >>>> Belonging to the Karma Kadgu school I do Clear Light practice of the 15th >>>> Karmapa which is different but adjacent. Before going to sleep you embody >>>> light in your heart chakra and hold that in any waking or lucid states that >>>> may arise. Coming to a lucid state as light/conscious awareness is very >>>> interesting and points to what you speak of - base mind. >>>> >>>> Good luck in your mind travels >>>> >>>> On Fri, Mar 11, 2022 at 11:01 AM Bruce Alderman <[log in to unmask]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> *CAUTION: *This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click >>>>> links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the >>>>> content is safe. >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> Nicholas, very interesting. Thanks for sharing this here. I'm a >>>>> little skeptical of the source or guide for this particular meditation, but >>>>> not of your experiences. I studied dream and sleep yoga for several years >>>>> while living at a Tibetan lama's house, and recognize - not exactly in >>>>> form, but in spirit and in some of the phenomenal and processual >>>>> particulars - the territory you are describing. >>>>> >>>>> Tibetan tradition differentiates between samsaric dreams, dreams of >>>>> clarity, and clear light dreams. Samsaric dreams, as you can imagine, are >>>>> dreams driven by past experiences and our emotional reactions to them, our >>>>> fixations, etc. Dreams of clarity are dreams where some deeper wisdom >>>>> shines through, where we receive some genuine spiritual insight, some >>>>> existential and moral clarity. They are "teaching dreams" or "initiatory >>>>> dreams" -- Big Dreams, in Jung's sense. And dreams of clear light are >>>>> generally lucid dreams, but not just lucid in the sense of recognizing we >>>>> are dreaming; they may also involve the recognition of awareness itself, of >>>>> the base of awareness. In sleep yoga, you practice the (reflexivie) >>>>> recognition of base awareness in the Delta state, where there is typically >>>>> no thought or other content present. The 'clear light' here is not a >>>>> brilliant (visual) white light, of course, but the simple clarity of >>>>> awareness itself. >>>>> >>>>> The transition from a surface-content orientation, a phenomenal >>>>> orientation, to the 'causal emptiness' of a content-free Delta state can >>>>> (for me also) feel like a "sucking into" or "sucking back into." >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Mar 11, 2022 at 6:49 AM Nicholas Lattanzio < >>>>> [log in to unmask]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> *CAUTION: *This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click >>>>>> links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the >>>>>> content is safe. >>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>> Good morning fellow UTOKers, >>>>>> >>>>>> I just wanted to share a powerful experience I had unintentionally >>>>>> while doing one of those odd Joe Dispenza meditations (which last like 3 >>>>>> hours typically). It was a very hybrid meditation, starting with Dispenza >>>>>> orienting us towards different energy centers in the body and trying to >>>>>> experience them simultaneously (something I've always struggled with since >>>>>> I tend to shift directly into a more panoramic awareness). >>>>>> >>>>>> So as I was doing this I began to fall asleep, which will happen time >>>>>> to time for any regular meditator even after years of practice, and I would >>>>>> do the routine zazen-esque redirecting of my attention whenever I noticed I >>>>>> was nodding off (very much like when we seem to "jerk ourselves" awake when >>>>>> falling asleep in your leisure spot). As this deepened, probably about >>>>>> 90-120min into the meditation, there was a strong detachment wherein my >>>>>> visual field seemed to shrink away like I was being pulled back into the >>>>>> Isness 'behind the eyes,' which is different than self-abidance or resting >>>>>> as nondual awareness- this was closer to an "encounter with the void." >>>>>> >>>>>> Although my eyes were closed, I still had a visual field, and aside >>>>>> from my visual snow that field was empty until I 'got sucked back.' >>>>>> Suddenly I started to see images, and it was an experience where the empty >>>>>> field seemed to flip (perceptually it was literally like the nothing >>>>>> flipped over to something like flipping a coin), and I was watching images >>>>>> play like a movie across a portion of my visual field (the part that I had >>>>>> been sucked back from). Though I was not thinking, I was still there. I >>>>>> ended up nodding off even in that state and went into the images that I am >>>>>> convinced now we're an actual dream, as I began to experience it first >>>>>> hand. This led to a lucid dream realization (a very rare occurrence for >>>>>> me), and upon realizing I was dreaming I was sucked back out into the >>>>>> space. >>>>>> >>>>>> This happened 2 or 3 times before I went to the space again and >>>>>> either actually fell asleep or shifted back to the meditation (I have no >>>>>> way of knowing if I actually passed out or not since I wasn't keeping time, >>>>>> but when I came back to the meditation there was about 30min left so it >>>>>> couldn't have been long). >>>>>> >>>>>> Having practiced self-inquiry for years now I was no stranger to the >>>>>> state of no-self, total deidentification with content, which was the space >>>>>> I was being sucked back to. I say this because after switching out of the >>>>>> dream I had absolutely no idea who I was, and I for sure was not dreaming >>>>>> that I was myself, I was a different race and in the dream I knew a >>>>>> different name. Being sucked back I was still able to observe the dream and >>>>>> when going back in would pick it up as if I was running into the the screen >>>>>> of a movie to join the actual movie and absorb into the screen. >>>>>> >>>>>> The usefulness of this relates directly to nondual awareness (no >>>>>> self), and has relevance for the ToK System in particular. What happened >>>>>> here is sleep meditation, a very advanced and not well known meditation >>>>>> wherein the meditator allows the body to fall asleep and remains as the >>>>>> witness throughout sleep. Sleep meditation is almost impossible to look up >>>>>> online, all you'll really find is guided meditations to help you sleep and >>>>>> similar minor cultural appropriations of meditation, but it is a nondual >>>>>> practice and is common in several Hindu and some Buddhist schools. >>>>>> >>>>>> The relevance for ToK System is that this was a first-person >>>>>> experience of what can be said to be at least the base of Mind, as nondual >>>>>> awareness precedes even consciousness and certainly identification >>>>>> (Culture). And, though anecdotal, this experience is entirely consistent >>>>>> with research on nondual awareness as underlying any content or phenomenon >>>>>> regardless of their presence (with the exception that my brain wasn't being >>>>>> imaged). I was deep in a state of wakefulness for at least most of the >>>>>> meditation itself, suggesting alpha waves predominating early, the periods >>>>>> wherein I was watching the dream "flip" on and off strongly suggest theta >>>>>> waves were increasingly present, I don't believe I reached deep sleep/delta >>>>>> wave sleep, despite apparent REM-phases, so if there were Delta waves I was >>>>>> present with them, as I definitely did not awaken from a deep sleep at any >>>>>> point in this. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thought it would be interesting to share, this is right on the line >>>>>> between 1st and 3rd person empiricisms. Would love to hear what people have >>>>>> to say, even of you're skeptical of my experience. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Nicholas G. Lattanzio, Psy.D. >>>>>> ############################ >>>>>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: >>>>>> mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the >>>>>> following link: >>>>>> http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 >>>>>> >>>>> ############################ >>>>> >>>>> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: >>>>> mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the >>>>> following link: >>>>> http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Timothy Rollin Pickerill >>>> Business - https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.AudioVideoArts.com&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=Bng4jADXHP_8b5NvsE85pTtKno-HeOpnCDAQ-jZKizc&s=KI2_RGVNEgM-WiJ6tpBW1EzfLXFLVAkWJrDP9tObaCg&e= >>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.AudioVideoArts.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=-TkHvglgw6YzTaDdBiDB_l_JL6uooEt6k8Gxng1arWw&s=J5655qIBk0fvbfVWYvW4VlkCFPB5TXnsIEUdTWf0x8o&e=> >>>> / >>>> Photography - https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__instagram.com_pickerillphotography_&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=Bng4jADXHP_8b5NvsE85pTtKno-HeOpnCDAQ-jZKizc&s=yp-8z71nINLJPcq7Myk9kcK2vP8qj7kXEDgEM0rHnvk&e= >>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__instagram.com_pickerillphotography_&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=-TkHvglgw6YzTaDdBiDB_l_JL6uooEt6k8Gxng1arWw&s=mdoJMKGuN7Zt2Bd1Cg47HEzAR3NM8L9_sbK6jc9j9ic&e=> >>>> Art - https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.TR-2DPickerill.com_&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=Bng4jADXHP_8b5NvsE85pTtKno-HeOpnCDAQ-jZKizc&s=uQXWC_vURLBoU1Ql8hPwsHoDToRI5SWAknuED-ynkBE&e= >>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.TR-2DPickerill.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=-TkHvglgw6YzTaDdBiDB_l_JL6uooEt6k8Gxng1arWw&s=Ek3RxxP8FgogNQTpts7Ko7-l5Vohcw9KWKtRXkilSL4&e=> >>>> 646-299-4173 (cell) >>>> >>> -- >>> >>> Timothy Rollin Pickerill >>> Business - https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.AudioVideoArts.com&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=Bng4jADXHP_8b5NvsE85pTtKno-HeOpnCDAQ-jZKizc&s=KI2_RGVNEgM-WiJ6tpBW1EzfLXFLVAkWJrDP9tObaCg&e= >>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.AudioVideoArts.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=-TkHvglgw6YzTaDdBiDB_l_JL6uooEt6k8Gxng1arWw&s=J5655qIBk0fvbfVWYvW4VlkCFPB5TXnsIEUdTWf0x8o&e=> >>> / >>> Photography - https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__instagram.com_pickerillphotography_&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=Bng4jADXHP_8b5NvsE85pTtKno-HeOpnCDAQ-jZKizc&s=yp-8z71nINLJPcq7Myk9kcK2vP8qj7kXEDgEM0rHnvk&e= >>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__instagram.com_pickerillphotography_&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=-TkHvglgw6YzTaDdBiDB_l_JL6uooEt6k8Gxng1arWw&s=mdoJMKGuN7Zt2Bd1Cg47HEzAR3NM8L9_sbK6jc9j9ic&e=> >>> Art - https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.TR-2DPickerill.com_&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=Bng4jADXHP_8b5NvsE85pTtKno-HeOpnCDAQ-jZKizc&s=uQXWC_vURLBoU1Ql8hPwsHoDToRI5SWAknuED-ynkBE&e= >>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.TR-2DPickerill.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=-TkHvglgw6YzTaDdBiDB_l_JL6uooEt6k8Gxng1arWw&s=Ek3RxxP8FgogNQTpts7Ko7-l5Vohcw9KWKtRXkilSL4&e=> >>> 646-299-4173 (cell) >>> ############################ >>> >>> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: >>> mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the >>> following link: >>> http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 >>> >> ############################ >> >> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: >> mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the >> following link: >> http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 >> > -- > > Timothy Rollin Pickerill > Business - https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.AudioVideoArts.com&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=Bng4jADXHP_8b5NvsE85pTtKno-HeOpnCDAQ-jZKizc&s=KI2_RGVNEgM-WiJ6tpBW1EzfLXFLVAkWJrDP9tObaCg&e= > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.AudioVideoArts.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ng-6cDST9J6SlVayLBlKZXeT2DxJfMB-hAkzlzXbH04&s=XDm_78F_tdA1GK4mOWYWORJ0fwCPigff3pZfdtcq_do&e=> > / > Photography - https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__instagram.com_pickerillphotography_&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=Bng4jADXHP_8b5NvsE85pTtKno-HeOpnCDAQ-jZKizc&s=yp-8z71nINLJPcq7Myk9kcK2vP8qj7kXEDgEM0rHnvk&e= > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__instagram.com_pickerillphotography_&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ng-6cDST9J6SlVayLBlKZXeT2DxJfMB-hAkzlzXbH04&s=144znIAxZa0FAYJlAiBvV9_9SWakgHqCu9zM8FX6ajg&e=> > Art - https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.TR-2DPickerill.com_&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=Bng4jADXHP_8b5NvsE85pTtKno-HeOpnCDAQ-jZKizc&s=uQXWC_vURLBoU1Ql8hPwsHoDToRI5SWAknuED-ynkBE&e= > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.TR-2DPickerill.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ng-6cDST9J6SlVayLBlKZXeT2DxJfMB-hAkzlzXbH04&s=VfPGt80_dyPuZ10kfPcXE_dlKJcj3Jo51Z830os2_es&e=> > 646-299-4173 (cell) > ############################ > > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: > mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the > following link: > http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 > ############################ To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1