Yeah I don’t personally think of these as forms of politics, per se, but that’s how it was framed within the Hanzi books. I prefer to think of these as forms of institutions that probably need to be in place within communities and that the separation of concerns is important (so that they don’t become monolithic and don’t cannibalize each other), but they can be implemented through civil society, which isn’t exactly politics. One of the central theses of Nordic Ideology is that these institutions stand in relation to each other and collectively provide people with a higher quality of life (including protecting the wise from the unwise) to the point where this system would become an attractor, leading eventually to large-scale game change in society. I disagree with the notion that these would need to be implemented through new governmental ministries, as the books argue. As for the suggestion of separating individual from collective action, I suppose the purpose of the table is mostly for collective action, but we could create a complementary table of some sort for individual action. Perhaps Lee you already have something along these lines in Wikiversity? I think that sensemaking is both a collective and individual action. We need institutions (not necessarily governmental) to help us and on an individual level we each need to learn to do better sensemaking. Nicholas, your observations do not come off as pessimistic. These types of institutions would need to complement each other and also keep each other in check. They are not mutually exclusive, but would probably be more stable if there were lines that separated them somehow, so that one institution doesn’t try to play multiple roles simultaneously. Hanzi makes the argument that this is similar to how a legislative branch of a government is separate from the judiciary (ideally). The system becomes unstable if these institutions step outside of their lane. But this is all theoretical and unproven at this point. Brandon From: theory of knowledge society discussion <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Nicholas Lattanzio Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2022 9:30 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: TOK - 6 new forms of politics from Hanzi Freinacht and core frameworks for each CAUTION: This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. _____ I only had time to briefly read this hut it dies look interesting. My main observation, which may purely be a product of a more straightforward analysis, is that these forms of politics are not mutually exclusive, nor do they seem comprehensive enough to actually substantiate something like a full blown political ideology. They seem more like the guiding principles of existing ideologies and social movements, so I don't really see the newness to them. Sorry if this comes off as pessimistic, I'm just not sure I see the scope of this properly based on my observations; but I would like to hear more if you can correct/redirect my view here. Regards, Nicholas G. Lattanzio, Psy.D. On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, 10:55 AM lee simplyquality.org <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__simplyquality.org&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=-1ewqkyOfUlgKuqW-nk8YjWtcM34CeMj-j2MxrTYyPY&s=1KwbT8_jLGNW_ziWgzgN-mYHwyQt7CAEHEMVs8uf5xo&e=> <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > wrote: CAUTION: This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. _____ Brandon, Thanks for this; your tables always get me thinking! Let me offer a few (somewhat random) thoughts. I have not yet read his books; I added them to my reading list. I use the word “governance” (rather than government) to broadly describe collective decision making. I use the word “politics” to describe creating a coalition. I use the word “government” to describe state-based rulemaking. Recognizing that a democracy depends on an informed populace, I stared the Living Wisely <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikiversity.org_wiki_Living-5FWisely&d=DwMGaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=C8pcNqY2X5J7ENTcsyAoQcSZ7xH5FsLsPZJEbyokeJg&s=aX3uzHXIpR7wRRcQI0yefxPyUJ_UOltr48BZF0HWFfA&e=> project 11 years ago. I reasoned that what I could do personally is to increase my own wisdom and share materials others could use to increase their wisdom. As the overall wisdom of the people increases, my hope is that collective decision making (e.g. government) would improve. I recognize this as a long-term strategy, and there is little or no evidence it is working yet. I seek a governance system that will: Protect the wise from actions of the unwise. It may be more politely stated as “Protect all of us from unwise actions”. These unwise actions include voting based on disinformation, violence, preventable loss, unwise allocation of the commons, etc. I studied political philosophy briefly (a 24-lectuer Great Course) and I am beginning to understand the difficulty of the problem. Your table helps to organize solution approaches to this problem. I suggest highlighting the difference between individual action and collective action in the table. For example, I see “sensemaking” as primarily an individual action. The Living Wisely project includes a “Clear Thinking Curriculum <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikiversity.org_wiki_Living-5FWisely-23Clear-5FThinking&d=DwMGaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=C8pcNqY2X5J7ENTcsyAoQcSZ7xH5FsLsPZJEbyokeJg&s=0TeQ5jMADujI9R7qXDlfywD5XpU6Pnt5dJwGR0ApQvQ&e=> ” that I think of as primarily self-study. Your table expands on this by introducing outside experts, etc., and this is useful. I will appreciate it if you add the Living Wisely Clear Thinking curriculum to the “Core Frameworks” list for the “Empirical” row. It will be interesting to see what happens as Elon Musk unleashes his version of free speech. It also seems helpful to identify various dimensions of governance to provide a space to describe and study various taxonomies and proposals. These dimensions of governance might include individual <-> collective, freedom <-> liberty, etc. (I tentatively concluded that there is no governance system that can provide both liberty and equality. If you have a counter example, please let me know.) I made a (nascent) proposal for “Virtual Nations <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikiversity.org_wiki_The-5FIdea-5FIncubator_Virtual-5FNations&d=DwMGaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=C8pcNqY2X5J7ENTcsyAoQcSZ7xH5FsLsPZJEbyokeJg&s=MUKzNUiSVvPrFKgw_Rc6eVpGaAXXOcNg7Po0CcbxOk0&e=> ” to allow people to choose their government on some basis other than geographical birthplace. Although the proposal needs work, I continue to believe it has possibilities. I created a (vague) problem statement on “Improving our social operating systems <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikiversity.org_wiki_Living-5FWisely_Improving-5Four-5FSocial-5FOperating-5FSystems&d=DwMGaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=C8pcNqY2X5J7ENTcsyAoQcSZ7xH5FsLsPZJEbyokeJg&s=x_NUeAufLmPOh5QVAz9zAOkIqr3lQMCaNHEhlLuQxS8&e=> ” a few years ago. I put together notes a few years ago on “Governing for well-being”. I need to learn and think much more about this before I can complete that work. It does raise the question “What is the purpose of government” that seems worth exploring. It would be good to create a problem finding <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikiversity.org_wiki_Problem-5FFinding&d=DwMGaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=C8pcNqY2X5J7ENTcsyAoQcSZ7xH5FsLsPZJEbyokeJg&s=cow6lttEW93bN55Zil3OpXszWN-rt9a9DI-uSpp4F1g&e=> project on that topic. I like the book “The Politics of Happiness” which states “There are powerful arguments for making happiness a focal point for government policy.” Thanks for keeping me thinking. I hope something here is helpful. Lee Beaumont On Apr 28, 2022, at 2:37 AM, Brandon Norgaard <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > wrote: CAUTION: This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. _____ I created this table based on the 6 new forms of politics explained in Hanzi Freinacht’s Nordic Ideology <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__docs.google.com_spreadsheets_d_1w-5FAf1P7lJZl131E6zNE8qBkFlNYh0E6b_edit-3Fusp-3Dsharing-26ouid-3D117491835000953037563-26rtpof-3Dtrue-26sd-3Dtrue&d=DwMFAg&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=zJzqc04vCGZh_kTYvaEj8lMKJia-ztCjC0JbkcLVUjI&s=s6G1mcA99p0Q_hXNrr7HIR_Wdn81XTYYRuY0ZaOrzR8&e=> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__docs.google.com_spreadsheets_d_1w-5FAf1P7lJZl131E6zNE8qBkFlNYh0E6b_edit-3Fusp-3Dsharing-26ouid-3D117491835000953037563-26rtpof-3Dtrue-26sd-3Dtrue&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=enkxPhUFEWbYISiVq9phxpVxfHs7V-zd5xnw4YXhiik&s=QELjaidTw1C5w6wPgh3SvfxkxedIlLtePJL1eLJQP5o&e= Much of this table I just copied over from the book and I also added some content of my own, including core frameworks for each. This is part of a greater effort to put this vision into practice, especially at the grass-roots local level. Feel free to add comments to the doc. 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