I think so too, Gregg. Part of what I liked so much about you and Nik talking is that it enriched the interface between "practices" of non-duality and the mighty metatheoretics of this UTOK thing. Your system bridges so-called "Eastern" and "Western" in my limited understanding, in a way that brings needed fresh air to the situation. 

And, at the same time, the fundament of non-duality is not properly placed within any system. It is not base awareness, in the sense we would normally use the word. It is realization-faith, "faith" more in the sense of faithfulness and not belief. It is "not this, not that," and also not not this, not not that. As many in the past have noted, it cannot be completely verbalized but only pointed to.  It is The Elephant Sun God looking upward to worship energy-information. It is its own Joint Point. It is the same at every Plane of Complexification exactly as it changes with each Plane of Complexification. It is only one Plane chosen at random, and not the others. And so on... Is-ness, with or without any epistemological agent. And all the words I've just typed are wrong and misleading, as they will be. 

But this is not an argument against what you or anyone has said, or a counterpoint or anything like that. It is merely my incoherent declaration of faith, and I feel in my body that this attempt will always be necessary, so I'm muddling through it dimly in the only way that I know how. There is a deep heart of care which must be attended to. 

Yours truly, 
Rachel 

On Sat, Apr 30, 2022 at 7:50 AM Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Thanks for all the commentary on this podcast with Nik.

 

A major point from UTOK is that, following the emergence of modern empirical natural science, we developed a fracture in our epistemological/ontological landscape, that we need to be able to put together.

 

I do agree with Nik that there is a way in which the only known certainty is the ontic epistemic awareness realizations of “am is”. This is the base of pre-conceptual/reflective awareness per se. The in the moment “A” in the ESP-A model of consciousness. The reason is that it is a foundational truth claim within itself. So, if I am experiencing awareness of a coffee cup or a pain in my gut, that is an undeniable moment of ontic epistemic realization. If we strip any correspondence truth implication of what it “stands for/models/represents” and just go with it as an instance of experiential awareness, well it becomes undeniable. How could it not be the case that I am not experiencing that which I am experiencing per se.

 

The trick is to marry that subjective ontic epistemic foundational point of view with the correspondence theory of truth that natural science developed. And do so in a way that is consistent with relational/intersubjective/transjective truth frames.

 

I think UTOK does it.


Best,
G

 

From: theory of knowledge society discussion <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of William McCartan
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2022 12:44 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: TOK UTOKing with Nik Lattanzio

 

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Good afternoon, Nicholas 

 

 

That was a great podcast between yourself and Gregg, Nicholas, as for your train of thought above, it is the one thing that I always say to someone questioning themselves because of others, we do not have to justify our existence simply because someone questions your history, it is yours. 

 

 As a construction worker, I haven't the educational background, but I do understand the nature of each of us respecting one and other. I've had to remind one of my sons of this fact when he asked that I confirm his life story, to someone questioning it.

 

As I said in the utb comments, I hope that you sit down with Gregg again.

 

Thank you 

 

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From: theory of knowledge society discussion <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Nicholas Lattanzio <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2022 10:41:29 AM
To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: TOK UTOKing with Nik Lattanzio

 

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As I'm sure Gregg would agree with on the most literal level, which holds as the ultimate Advaitist truth claim: The only thing I know FOR SURE is that "I AM." All else is suspect to some degree, but the experience of existence is undeniable; what it means? I don't know, but from Nondual perspectives we need not know and in terms of abstracted empirical claims we can't be sure (p=.01/.05). 

 

Until we know what a thought IS, we must regard them as ephemeral, constrained, single-aspect monisms of identity; they are real, but not as real as the "That which I AM." 


Regards,

 

Nicholas G. Lattanzio, Psy.D.

 

 

On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 10:46 PM Tim Pickerill <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

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UG Krishnamurt, again a simple teaching. In his first recorded talk, with David Bohm, asks and asserts what is Truth?  That which does not change. Interesting. Kinda screws up a lot of narratives… all is illusion 



 

 

On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 10:57 PM Nicholas Lattanzio <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

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Absolutely TR, Ram Dass is one of my greatest teachers (and I named my cat after him), though he is not of a strictly advaitist (nondual) lineage. Ram Dass is moreso an "Eastern Eclectic" as I call it, though his views were certainly rooted in nondual teachings, and he would classically refer to anything as being "just awareness." The nondual spectrum is wide though, and Nondual Empiricism is fundamentally rooted in radical nonduality (as exemplified by UG Krishnamurti, Mooji, Papaji, etc.,). I guess I would place Ram Dass in the more embodied aspects of NE due to his massive influence on the world, so he maybe gets extra credit. And as you say, Be Here Now is definitely an NE motto that touches on the radical nondual aspect (i.e., you can only ever be here now, even if deluded to believe you're somewhere/time else). 


Regards,

 

Nicholas G. Lattanzio, Psy.D.

 

 

On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 2:34 PM Tim Pickerill <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

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At some point Ram Das came up, I think his phrase “be here now” can be used nicely to frame a metaphysics of non dual  presence. 

 

Be - “to be” action, verb, process, energy, information  - presenting mind as meaning

Here - place, space, relationship - present in mind

Now - presence of mind

 

Mind presenting meaning as creative evolution through relationship with Mind. 

 

Cheers 

T

 

 

On Tue, Apr 26, 2022 at 9:39 AM Rachel Hayden <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

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Thank you Nik and Gregg for this! It was a lovely listen yesterday as I synchronistically drove an unusually meandering course through wooded backroads, at one point getting slightly lost.

 

A Zen anecdote came up for me around 1:20:30, related to points in the video about what is actually being "practiced," and how the realization of non-duality does not dualistically cut us off from self-cultivation. It features one of my favorite old-time teachers, who played paradox like Coltrane played the saxophone. It’s probably a bit mangled with 20 years of memory, but I'd like to share it: 

 

An official asked Joshu, “What is it that you practice?”

Joshu said, “I myself do not practice.” 

The official said, “How then can you teach non-practitioners like myself?” 

Joshu said, “If you did not practice, how could you have overcome hunger and cold and attained the rank of a high official?” 

With tears in his eyes, the official bowed in gratitude. 

 

Gladly,

Rachel

 

On Tue, Apr 26, 2022 at 8:07 AM Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

https://youtu.be/0cxt4UPqhj8

 

Episode 51: UTOKing with Nicholas Lattanzio                                            April 25, 2022

Title: Nondual Empiricism

In Episode 49, Gregg welcomes Nicholas Lattanzio. He is a psychologist with long standing interests in integral theory and Eastern philosophical traditions. A TOK Society member, he advocates for a "nondual empirical" position that he uses to bridge psychotherapy, philosophy and being in the world. He has interests and areas of expertise comprising existential/spiritual crises, anxiety disorders, substance use disorders, personality disorders, psychosis, self-harm, trauma, ADHD, depressive and mood disorders, dissociative disorders, and issues related to identity at various stages of development In this episode, he shares with Gregg his thinking and how nondual empiricism relates to UTOK. 

Here is the episode on podbean. Here is his linked in page.

 

___________________________________________

Gregg Henriques, Ph.D.
President of the Society for the Exploration of Psychotherapy Integration (2022)

Professor
Department of Graduate Psychology
216 Johnston Hall
MSC 7401
James Madison University
Harrisonburg, VA 22807
(540) 568-7857 (phone)
(540) 568-4747 (fax)


Be that which enhances dignity and well-being with integrity.

Check out the Unified Theory Of Knowledge homepage at:

https://www.unifiedtheoryofknowledge.org/

 

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