Yes, it’s a big discussion. I wonder, though, if Sophocles would disagree with you on the origins of determinism, while I’m sure he would disagree with my argument for free will. Peter Peter Lloyd Jones 562-209-4080 [log in to unmask] Denial of free will is denial of consciousness. > On May 26, 2022, at 1:59 PM, Nicholas Lattanzio <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > CAUTION: This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. > Respectfully I think there's a lot to be said about not having free will as such but still being conscious, certainly aware, without being totally predetermined. And that physics on the whole does not evince free will whatsoever, and further the absence of naturalistic science backing something up does not equate to mythopoetic. But I have a feeling that there's a much larger discussion at hand there. > > Regards, > > Nicholas G. Lattanzio, Psy.D. > > On Thu, May 26, 2022, 12:00 PM Peter Lloyd Jones <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: > CAUTION: This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. > Hi Nicholas, > On the other hand, some might see determinism as mythopoetic. I submit that, contrary to its proponents’ claims, determinism is not supported by physics. The laws of cause and effect do not include a claim that events are restricted to one path. Despite one origin, there are gazillions of divergent histories and gazillions of emergent presents. > > I do, though, agree that libertarian free will is based in a mythopoetic narrative. It’s a that concept of free will mucks up the argument because there’s much room for free choice on a physical world. > Respectfully, > Peter > > > Peter Lloyd Jones > 562-209-4080 > [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > > Denial of free will is denial of consciousness. > > > > > > > > >> On May 26, 2022, at 12:04 PM, Nicholas Lattanzio <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: >> >> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. >> Very enjoyable for the portion I was able to listen to. I like Sam Harris a lot and find very few contrasts between his views and nondual thought, obviously he and Garfield don't disagree much here either. >> >> The mythopoetic nature of free will is an often overlooked point that is so crucial I'm current discussions in neuroscience that many, even highly evolved thinkers, don't seem prepared to reconcile. >> >> Regards, >> >> Nicholas G. Lattanzio, Psy.D. >> >> On Wed, May 25, 2022, 10:29 PM michael kazanjian <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: >> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. >> Speaking of self, the words of Jesus, Buber, and Hillel come into play. Losing the self for the greater good, means gaining the self. >> >> Michael M. Kazanjian >> >> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022, 10:26:28 PM CDT, Waldemar A Schmidt, PhD, MD <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: >> >> >> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. >> Thank you, Lee. >> >> Waldemar A Schmidt, PhD, MD >> (Perseveret et Percipiunt) >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On May 25, 2022, at 3:30 PM, lee simplyquality.org <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__simplyquality.org&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=SXoJaKqpT_fJQupbaY_W_T6mg7yJrPXj2ndXJQ_-Jv4&s=V9SqEVHsE6ikdPwnGf7EGAKDe_hDUMubn1HWkmULq_s&e=> <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: >>> >>> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. >>> Sorry about that. >>> See: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.samharris.org_podcasts_making-2Dsense-2Depisodes&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=DFMMmE8nWKtKC8t1I_Q_6WS9TQdlDRc6Y-2_wwTU51k&s=vsFc24Wfwe3WRb_YRoB3xdfDvN9D5jsXjfluNtMOzLU&e= <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.samharris.org_podcasts_making-2Dsense-2Depisodes&d=DwMGaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=Q_Mgib85l3xidEqDMNATcWiufj0mUzastnfhOxu-cYI&s=vjriRLQlj7uU7i3EaM5GbK4E4qhA31VRdllhCApLJZc&e=> >>> This is the first (most recent) linked podcast. >>> >>> The podcast is based on Garfield's recent book “Losing ourselves: Learning to live without a self”. >>> >>> Lee >>> >>>> On May 25, 2022, at 5:45 PM, Waldemar Schmidt <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: >>>> >>>> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. >>>> Lee: I don’t see the link to the podcast. >>>> >>>>> On May 25, 2022, at 11:52 AM, lee simplyquality.org <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__simplyquality.org&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=fxthIelf0TOIpBdWvcMYpiCJXnocGTEXhg4iAusGD_M&s=QMS5NGFGqprWCuNyiXGEd7a__HYdzTQ8lMVG-y7ebH0&e=> <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. >>>>> TOK Folk, >>>>> Sam Harris recently published the podcast Do You Really Have a Self? A Conversation with Jay Garfield. >>>>> This is the most lucid dialogue on this topic I have come across. >>>>> (I listened to the full-length subscription version, a shorter non-subscription version is also available.) >>>>> I hope it is interesting and informative. >>>>> >>>>> Lee Beaumont >>>>> >>>>> Here is the description and link: >>>>> >>>>> In this episode of the podcast, Sam speaks with Jay Garfield about the illusion of the self. They discuss the default sense of subjectivity, the difference between absolute and conventional truth, interdependence, free will, subject-object duality, emptiness, the “mind-only” school of Buddhism, scientific realism and experiential anti-realism, and other topics. >>>>> >>>>> Jay L. Garfield is Chair of the Philosophy department at Smith College, visiting professor of Buddhist philosophy at Harvard Divinity School, professor of philosophy at Melbourne University and adjunct professor of philosophy at the Central Institute of Higher Tibetan Studies. Academicinfluence.com <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__ablink.news.samharris.org_ls_click-3Fupn-3DsPC-2D2BqpkpRT64tOLYB3x5IYqkm-2D2FJB737AGzh7wmzFKll9HNOE6zsxTBjIrlRb-2D2FcXQWHYR-5FusU2HgLP-2D2B1NpXr1k3Zx0hRf782swDnC0teVEdVK2104yyaf2n71JaX-2D2Bb0Ps8QiDGPjEJfz4jxd-2D2F5jwHXcS0zGtjAq1pt1oXSZ7VsEzXGS5Qh0y2lK0QLegRhrh4viu-2D2FXafKMjb7EqdpsHh0rFBD7Drbi1iJJR-2D2FwJooaxMve-2D2BDTBfxBa5Qymp0ZO1AkZLODnB-2D2FzGahTP73gSm2uR-2D2BwM5pVCCpxK34YvWadbcujnjyDr8QM0-2D2Bc9ByAJMgL6MC-2D2BUvvhDF4d1BTJdAXjoXkI-2D2FdPEpQ9c-2D2BqADPO-2D2FAGSYgV8PsOt81LSe0Ttw5jd6o3HYoxYtlnP9RyJH7hS9NNyj-2D2BF-2D2FaMAp-2D2FoZE4AuIJntFHrgd9MH3TN9BBF4fr-2D2BkHUUKD-2D2BEesMF7rUGrof5ywdbvvg-2D2FYe2IbHvdGMukg82UYdh-2D2FT9wEH8FpQe0i6K2bEk6dTp3dt9A74yOEDVtVETlpN9kLS27KiXQdsmUM2cCxOyRToXqdqTR9OA7WBoPqLy2A2J4ivgA2hEzDoibNJrUCJ1rKZ05zivS-2D2BnN8-2D2BICiqOoz7TB2QUfHNw-2D2B0b3-2D2BV-2D2BK-2D2BeCRQAvddDwIrKuypvNFRhbnl1jZpY8wN8jgwvF9bgOLRoZk2B7rhGCMwgIh1ZtoFTEQ-2D2BNgfOw5qknLGjuZP5II9eE9FsTaYasVD1oUMGb1HWph7qTz3Rm5F-2D2BA7nTJ9Ak-2D2FnIRtt0bVUW0t9ifjyP1KLaUgkQkWblwGTMxI1qOQAeq1jUubUD3E-2D3D&d=DwMGaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=b94SmIN-EbcIYRSfcxLhX74h5heOuinxyuZ96gWeYsk&s=gWDZxw5WORgF6jiFNTGmWh4-wGXaA2WtaN04rTRZOmE&e=> has identified him as one of the 50 most influential philosophers in the world over the past decade. >>>>> >>>>> Garfield’s research addresses topics in cognitive science, modern Indian philosophy, ethics, epistemology, logic, the Scottish enlightenment, and Buddhist philosophy—particularly Indo-Tibetan Madhyamaka and Yogācāra. He is the author or editor of over 30 books and nearly 200 articles, chapters, and reviews. >>>>> ############################ >>>>> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:mailto:[log in to unmask]> or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 <http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1> >>>> >>>> >>>> ############################ >>>> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:mailto:[log in to unmask]> or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 <http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1> >>> >>> >>> ############################ >>> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:mailto:[log in to unmask]> or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 <http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1> >> ############################ >> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:mailto:[log in to unmask]> or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 <http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1> >> ############################ >> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:mailto:[log in to unmask]> or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 <http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1>############################ >> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:mailto:[log in to unmask]> or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 <http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1> > ############################ > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:mailto:[log in to unmask]> or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 <http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1>############################ > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:mailto:[log in to unmask]> or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 <http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1> ############################ To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1