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My question for determinists is why would there be a world if it was all
determined already? What's the point?
To me it begs for a God, which I do not believe in, at least the creator
God outside of the universe vs the spirit of beingness eminent in a
Universe. I don't see how you can have creativity or full diversity in a
determinist Universe. And couple that with their love of entropy and I just
don't see anything happening; a truly dead dead universe.
As far as Free-will, the same points apply but I would put forward that a
philosophy of no free-will such as Harris ascribes to where people are not
responsible for their actions is extremely dangerous.

Peace
T

Timothy Rollin Pickerill
Writings - https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__themysteriousdeepblack.substack.com_&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=JW3Pmem1PeDd9CJUft0o7vj9Mc7UhMU9bl38yZY7JIY&s=f4On0_uYcdhHM33FPue-JJ2rO7A6qKnx8XZf0_jesQ8&e= 
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646-299-4173 (cell)


On Thu, May 26, 2022 at 2:11 PM Peter Lloyd Jones <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

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> ------------------------------
> Yes, it’s a big discussion. I wonder, though, if Sophocles would disagree
> with you on the origins of determinism, while I’m sure he would disagree
> with my argument for free will.
> Peter
>
>
> Peter Lloyd Jones
> 562-209-4080
> [log in to unmask]
>
> Denial of free will is denial of consciousness.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On May 26, 2022, at 1:59 PM, Nicholas Lattanzio <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
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> ------------------------------
> Respectfully I think there's a lot to be said about not having free will
> as such but still being conscious, certainly aware, without being totally
> predetermined. And that physics on the whole does not evince free will
> whatsoever, and further the absence of naturalistic science backing
> something up does not equate to mythopoetic. But I have a feeling that
> there's a much larger discussion at hand there.
>
> Regards,
>
> Nicholas G. Lattanzio, Psy.D.
>
> On Thu, May 26, 2022, 12:00 PM Peter Lloyd Jones <
> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
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>> ------------------------------
>> Hi Nicholas,
>> On the other hand, some might see determinism as mythopoetic. I submit
>> that, contrary to its proponents’ claims, determinism is not supported by
>> physics. The laws of cause and effect do not include a claim that events
>> are restricted to one path. Despite one origin, there are gazillions of
>> divergent histories and gazillions of emergent presents.
>>
>> I do, though, agree that libertarian free will is based in a mythopoetic
>> narrative. It’s a that concept of free will mucks up the argument because
>> there’s much room for free choice on a physical world.
>> Respectfully,
>> Peter
>>
>>
>> Peter Lloyd Jones
>> 562-209-4080
>> [log in to unmask]
>>
>> Denial of free will is denial of consciousness.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 26, 2022, at 12:04 PM, Nicholas Lattanzio <[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>>
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>> or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is
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>> ------------------------------
>> Very enjoyable for the portion I was able to listen to. I like Sam Harris
>> a lot and find very few contrasts between his views and nondual thought,
>> obviously he and Garfield don't disagree much here either.
>>
>> The mythopoetic nature of free will is an often overlooked point that is
>> so crucial I'm current discussions in neuroscience that many, even highly
>> evolved thinkers, don't seem prepared to reconcile.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Nicholas G. Lattanzio, Psy.D.
>>
>> On Wed, May 25, 2022, 10:29 PM michael kazanjian <
>> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
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>>> ------------------------------
>>> Speaking of self,  the words of Jesus, Buber, and Hillel come into
>>> play.   Losing the self for the greater good, means gaining the self.
>>>
>>> Michael M. Kazanjian
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022, 10:26:28 PM CDT, Waldemar A Schmidt, PhD, MD
>>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
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>>> ------------------------------
>>> Thank you, Lee.
>>>
>>> Waldemar A Schmidt, PhD, MD
>>> (Perseveret et Percipiunt)
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>
>>> On May 25, 2022, at 3:30 PM, lee simplyquality.org
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__simplyquality.org&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=SXoJaKqpT_fJQupbaY_W_T6mg7yJrPXj2ndXJQ_-Jv4&s=V9SqEVHsE6ikdPwnGf7EGAKDe_hDUMubn1HWkmULq_s&e=>
>>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>
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>>> ------------------------------
>>> Sorry about that.
>>> See: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.samharris.org_podcasts_making-2Dsense-2Depisodes&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=JW3Pmem1PeDd9CJUft0o7vj9Mc7UhMU9bl38yZY7JIY&s=xVhI9RSJuyn3NNAhU4RpAOriUuNfGTn0Iio7F_bbQDA&e= 
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.samharris.org_podcasts_making-2Dsense-2Depisodes&d=DwMGaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=Q_Mgib85l3xidEqDMNATcWiufj0mUzastnfhOxu-cYI&s=vjriRLQlj7uU7i3EaM5GbK4E4qhA31VRdllhCApLJZc&e=>
>>> This is the first (most recent) linked podcast.
>>>
>>> The podcast is based on Garfield's recent book “Losing ourselves:
>>> Learning to live without a self”.
>>>
>>> Lee
>>>
>>> On May 25, 2022, at 5:45 PM, Waldemar Schmidt <[log in to unmask]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
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>>> ------------------------------
>>> Lee: I don’t see the link to the podcast.
>>>
>>> On May 25, 2022, at 11:52 AM, lee simplyquality.org
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__simplyquality.org&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=fxthIelf0TOIpBdWvcMYpiCJXnocGTEXhg4iAusGD_M&s=QMS5NGFGqprWCuNyiXGEd7a__HYdzTQ8lMVG-y7ebH0&e=>
>>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>
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>>> ------------------------------
>>> TOK Folk,
>>> Sam Harris recently published the podcast Do You Really Have a Self? A
>>> Conversation with Jay Garfield.
>>> This is the most lucid dialogue on this topic I have come across.
>>> (I listened to the full-length subscription version, a shorter
>>> non-subscription version is also available.)
>>> I hope it is interesting and informative.
>>>
>>> Lee Beaumont
>>>
>>> Here is the description and link:
>>>
>>> In this episode of the podcast, Sam speaks with Jay Garfield about the
>>> illusion of the self. They discuss the default sense of subjectivity, the
>>> difference between absolute and conventional truth, interdependence, free
>>> will, subject-object duality, emptiness, the “mind-only” school of
>>> Buddhism, scientific realism and experiential anti-realism, and other
>>> topics.
>>>
>>> *Jay L. Garfield* is Chair of the Philosophy department at Smith
>>> College, visiting professor of Buddhist philosophy at Harvard Divinity
>>> School, professor of philosophy at Melbourne University and adjunct
>>> professor of philosophy at the Central Institute of Higher Tibetan Studies.
>>> Academicinfluence.com
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__ablink.news.samharris.org_ls_click-3Fupn-3DsPC-2D2BqpkpRT64tOLYB3x5IYqkm-2D2FJB737AGzh7wmzFKll9HNOE6zsxTBjIrlRb-2D2FcXQWHYR-5FusU2HgLP-2D2B1NpXr1k3Zx0hRf782swDnC0teVEdVK2104yyaf2n71JaX-2D2Bb0Ps8QiDGPjEJfz4jxd-2D2F5jwHXcS0zGtjAq1pt1oXSZ7VsEzXGS5Qh0y2lK0QLegRhrh4viu-2D2FXafKMjb7EqdpsHh0rFBD7Drbi1iJJR-2D2FwJooaxMve-2D2BDTBfxBa5Qymp0ZO1AkZLODnB-2D2FzGahTP73gSm2uR-2D2BwM5pVCCpxK34YvWadbcujnjyDr8QM0-2D2Bc9ByAJMgL6MC-2D2BUvvhDF4d1BTJdAXjoXkI-2D2FdPEpQ9c-2D2BqADPO-2D2FAGSYgV8PsOt81LSe0Ttw5jd6o3HYoxYtlnP9RyJH7hS9NNyj-2D2BF-2D2FaMAp-2D2FoZE4AuIJntFHrgd9MH3TN9BBF4fr-2D2BkHUUKD-2D2BEesMF7rUGrof5ywdbvvg-2D2FYe2IbHvdGMukg82UYdh-2D2FT9wEH8FpQe0i6K2bEk6dTp3dt9A74yOEDVtVETlpN9kLS27KiXQdsmUM2cCxOyRToXqdqTR9OA7WBoPqLy2A2J4ivgA2hEzDoibNJrUCJ1rKZ05zivS-2D2BnN8-2D2BICiqOoz7TB2QUfHNw-2D2B0b3-2D2BV-2D2BK-2D2BeCRQAvddDwIrKuypvNFRhbnl1jZpY8wN8jgwvF9bgOLRoZk2B7rhGCMwgIh1ZtoFTEQ-2D2BNgfOw5qknLGjuZP5II9eE9FsTaYasVD1oUMGb1HWph7qTz3Rm5F-2D2BA7nTJ9Ak-2D2FnIRtt0bVUW0t9ifjyP1KLaUgkQkWblwGTMxI1qOQAeq1jUubUD3E-2D3D&d=DwMGaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=b94SmIN-EbcIYRSfcxLhX74h5heOuinxyuZ96gWeYsk&s=gWDZxw5WORgF6jiFNTGmWh4-wGXaA2WtaN04rTRZOmE&e=> has
>>> identified him as one of the 50 most influential philosophers in the world
>>> over the past decade.
>>>
>>> Garfield’s research addresses topics in cognitive science, modern Indian
>>> philosophy, ethics, epistemology, logic, the Scottish enlightenment, and
>>> Buddhist philosophy—particularly Indo-Tibetan Madhyamaka and Yogācāra. He
>>> is the author or editor of over 30 books and nearly 200 articles, chapters,
>>> and reviews.
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