Hi Banon and Greg .


Thank you both for responding so quickly, inspiringly and kindly. I'm
really starting to get to know all the rich complexity of the UTOK forest,
and I will definitely participate in the UTOK Consilience conference. I'm
already reading the texts you suggested and as soon as I can, I'll send you
a more detailed email with my comments and insights. Still, reflecting my
current excitement about UTOK, I would like to make some brief opening
comments directed to you both.


Banon. I was very interested in your comments on mindfulness, a topic that
deeply fascinates me not only as a researcher but as a human being. One of
the research projects in my laboratory currently is precisely to verify the
therapeutic difference between being attentive to the present moment with
or without simultaneous attention on our emotions (on our "mammalian
self"). After reading your text about UTIK I will be able to make further
reflections


Greg. I totally agree that in order to naturalize psychology, it is
essential to develop theories that create a naturalistic and non-reductive
bridge between objective (third person) and subjective (first person)
experiences of reality. I believe that the current state of the art in
affective cognitive neuroscience already has sufficient experimental
evidence to support this bridge in the form of models based on controlled
hallucination and neuroverses. After reading the text you indicated, I
think I will be able to translate this better within a UTOK framework.


Let's keep in touch


With gratitude and love


Luiz

Luiz
Prof. Dr. Luiz Carlos Serramo Lopez
Psicólogo (CRP 13 / 9305) .,Biólogo
Lab. Ecologia Comportamental e Psicobiologia (DSE/CCEN)
Programa de Pós Graduação em Neurociência Cognitiva (PPGNeC)
Universidade Federal da Paraiba (UFPB)
João Pessoa -Brasil

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Em qua., 3 de abr. de 2024 às 06:38, UTOK Society listserv <
[log in to unmask]> escreveu:

> Luiz,
>
> Thanks for putting this out there. I like your neuroverse concept. It
> seems to me, this is where therapy, meditation, and contemplation can fit
>  as approaches to build a better neuroverse once one realizes, as self and
> as a series of experiences, are involved in this naturalistic construction.
>
> Not sure if you have seen the blog series of UTIK, Unified Theory (of the
> tree) in the Knower, wherein I discuss among other things a subjective
> ontology based on a subjective epistemology of types of mindfulness
> (attentional, awareness, psychological, and transjective). These practices
> shape and shift one’s neuroverse substantially (did for me.) In particular,
> the higher order type of self that can emerge experientially comes to early
> conclusions of “ I am a person in the world influenced by other persons,
> but as a matter of experience, this person and world are
> constructed/coarising in a mind. I can come to know this mind at its
> conscious foundation and it is freedom, peace, love, and bliss. It has a
> sense of no time, spacious without limit, selfless (or self arises
> secondarily). But rather than claim this mind is the foundation of cosmos,
> the more certain claim is that its is the foundation of this personal
> experience. Furthermore this mind arises out of the collective intelligence
> of living cells, which are connected to the ecology of all life and
> descendants of the first life on Earth. These cells are composed of heavier
> elements from supernovas of former stars, and this matter is arising out of
>  energy-information, which itself is emanating from a transcendent that no
> one can conceptually or experimentally fully grasp. Therefore, I am
> interconnected with this ecology of existence, rather a temporary feature
> of existence but know I care about everything and everyone and feel the
> impulse for nature and it’s complexity to survive, thrive, evolve, and
> emerge.
>
> While this layer of self is not all there is to us, we are persons, we can
> contact our experiential self, we can contact awareness, and contact this
> transjective self (composed of a dialectic of 1st and 3rd person) in our
> “tree” in the knower.
>
> Here is part 3 as a reference
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmedium.com%2Funified-theory-of-knowledge%2Fcultivating-the-tree-in-the-knower-405af9733303&data=05%7C02%7CTOK-SOCIETY-L%40listserv.jmu.edu%7C6e4a832c23494bbfeef908dc53e015cc%7Ce9333c23cac742f499895cee3d4a79c0%7C0%7C0%7C638477469117769706%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ZBvzVNHdTi64xwOyWsIer5F7rBeZ6L2S1EdQI1KcX9s%3D&reserved=0
>
> Thanks for putting this out there. Again I really like the framing of
> neuroverse and neurobody. It’s a trip in itself to recognize the felt sense
> of having a body is a constructed schema. It’s one thing to conceptually
> recognize, but with types of meditation one can “deconstruct” and
> experientially know this. The caveat is, important for people to do the
> personal work as sometimes meditation can help us see through our personal
> self and sometimes is an escape from personal pain, the former is great and
> the latter disowns part of the neuroverse:)
>
> My day work is all brain stimulation for neuropsychiatric disorders—
> fascinating to see people make profound shifts out of severe depression and
> psychosis but changing Mind 1 neurological network behavior.
>
> Thanks for your contribution and look forward to more engagement. I hope
> you come to the UTOK Consilience conference next month.
>
> Baron
>
>
> Baron Short, MD, MSCR
> Associate Professor of Psychiatry and Medicine
> Medical Director, Brain Stimulation Service
> Medical University of South Carolina
> Institute of Psychiatry
> #67 President Street, MSC 861
> Charleston, SC 29425
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmuschealth.org%2Fmedical-services%2Fpsychiatry%2Fbrain-stimulation&data=05%7C02%7CTOK-SOCIETY-L%40listserv.jmu.edu%7C6e4a832c23494bbfeef908dc53e015cc%7Ce9333c23cac742f499895cee3d4a79c0%7C0%7C0%7C638477469118394759%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=B9Z4a9VgYSDI1gBYlw67%2BY%2FlVjKgRwxW3zHnuy8V3Nk%3D&reserved=0
> Podcast -
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fadvance.muschealth.org%2Flibrary%2F2022%2Fmay%2Fbrain-stimulation-for-depression-podcast&data=05%7C02%7CTOK-SOCIETY-L%40listserv.jmu.edu%7C6e4a832c23494bbfeef908dc53e015cc%7Ce9333c23cac742f499895cee3d4a79c0%7C0%7C0%7C638477469118394759%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=AzaFXq4iIEgxsTzoK%2BLfHP1gR%2BVvOVXWQaxahni2bJQ%3D&reserved=0
>
> On Apr 2, 2024, at 5:19 PM, UTOK Society listserv <
> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> * CAUTION: External *
>  UTOK and Neuroverses: How Neuroscience Can Assist Psychologists in
> Naturalizing and Validating Transcendent Experiences
>
>
> Hello dear UTOK community,
>
>
> I recently had the pleasure of connecting with UTOK, and I must confess, I
> have fallen in love with the project for several reasons.
>
>
> I began my career as a biologist, pursuing my PhD in animal behavior, and
> later obtained a degree in psychology. Today, I am a researcher in a
> neuroscience postgraduate program, focusing on the physiological correlates
> of self-compassion and mindfulness. As such, I am deeply committed to the
> UTOK project's aim of creating non-reductive bridges between natural and
> human sciences."
>
>
> Therefore, I am writing this brief essay/summary to explore how
> neuroscience can contribute to UTOK's pursuit of its syntheist idea: the
> notion that transcendental feelings of awe, bliss, and joy are not mere
> illusions confined within our minds but are natural phenomena that exist
> beyond our perceived heads, outside what we intuitively feel as our heads.
>
>
> Modern neuroscience is increasingly providing insights into how animals
> interact with their environment in a way that transcends traditional
> dichotomies such as Internalism (where consciousness is believed to reside
> solely within our heads) and Externalism (where consciousness is seen as
> existing outside of our heads). Anil Seth has coined the term "controlled
> hallucination" to describe this emerging understanding, which I prefer to
> refer to as Indirect Realism, "Neurorealism" or “Neuroverses” In essence,
> this concept suggests:
>
>
> 1-The evolution of complex moving animals has led to the development of
> intricate brains capable of representing both the external environment and
> the individual navigating through it. Consequently, these complex brains
> have the capacity to generate  "neuroverses" and "neurobodies". These
> neuroverses were selected over evolutionary time because they aided our
> animal ancestors in predicting the future dynamics of the universe
> surrounding them.
>
>
> 2- Therefore, what an animal experiences as its own body is essentially a
> biological neuro-simulation—an internal neurobody interacting with an
> internal neuroverse running online within its brain. This process can be
> likened to an online controlled hallucination that aided our ancestors in
> predicting how our "real" bodies and the universe would interact.
>
>
> 3- The concept of controlled hallucination, or neuroverses, has enabled
> neuroscientists to devise devices that trick our brains into producing
> alternate states of reality without the use of drugs, such as inducing the
> sensation of out-of-body experiences or even weird experiences. (for
> example https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdoi.org%2F10.1098%2Frsos.201911&data=05%7C02%7CTOK-SOCIETY-L%40listserv.jmu.edu%7C6e4a832c23494bbfeef908dc53e015cc%7Ce9333c23cac742f499895cee3d4a79c0%7C0%7C0%7C638477469118394759%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=2CDJ%2B99Zx%2BU2Z%2F7K4otQW5hflrlO0ELZprC1bhRPbWI%3D&reserved=0
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Fdoi.org*2F10.1098*2Frsos.201911&data=05*7C02*7CTOK-SOCIETY-L*40listserv.jmu.edu*7C483f894b6aab426e235808dc535a9433*7Ce9333c23cac742f499895cee3d4a79c0*7C0*7C0*7C638476896006232535*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C40000*7C*7C*7C&sdata=vOl6i6Yyo9*2FSqIGWO*2BWxWvyZBCi7tCobjAijNIfB*2BGI*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!Ab1_Rw!EJku9BJ7OL9yxHbVRUWsuRvBXZ2xFIO6YKlEz5nZevBEHkgK5I8EQ3ooEjwV0bnmjKg_i3qTKgv211zfcA2wVoumXJVD9WE$>
> )
>
>
> 4- However, while the concept of controlled hallucinations has proven to
> be a highly productive and successful experimental paradigm, it has also
> led to a profoundly counterintuitive notion: our brains do not exist solely
> within what we perceive as our heads; rather, everything around us,
> including our heads and bodies, are neurosimulations running online within
> each individual brain.
>
>
> 5 -This extremely counter-intuitive yet empirically supported idea could
> serve as one avenue to naturalize and validate the vast diversity of human
> experiences regarding the universe, including religious experiences.
>
>
> 6- For example: If individual A perceives the entire universe filled with
> bliss and joy while individual B simultaneously feels the universe as full
> of dread and despair, both perspectives are valid and material (and in this
> sense "real"). This is because, despite both individuals receiving stimuli
> from the same shared universe, these stimuli are processed by two different
> brains with distinct histories: one brain creates a neuroverse of bliss
> while the other generates a neuroverse of dread.
>
>
> 7- In conclusion, neuroverses constitute the diverse facets of the human
> experience (different parts of the same universal elephant). They are not
> ethereal products of metaphysical minds but living biological constructions
> generated by the metabolic activity of our brains. By naturalizing and
> comprehending how our brains construct these different neuroverses using
> similar inputs, humanity can strive to build a society where more
> individuals spend more days immersed in blessed neuroverses of joy rather
> than in dread neuroverses of fear and pain.
>
>
> With my best
>
>
> Luiz
>
>
>
> Side note: When I teach these concepts to my postgraduate alumni, I
> sometimes encounter resistance, particularly from those who fear that a
> material/natural consciousness will cease to exist after death. In such
> instances, I reassure them by pointing out that if they believe in an
> omnipotent god, then by definition, this omnipotent deity could recreate
> every atom of their body and brain in the afterlife. On the other hand, for
> those who don't believe in consciousness after death, I emphasize that in
> such a scenario, they wouldn't feel anything anyway. So in any case you can
> relax and enjoy your neuroverse during this life.
>
>
> Prof. Dr. Luiz Carlos Serramo Lopez
> Psicólogo (CRP 13 / 9305) .,Biólogo
> Lab. Ecologia Comportamental e Psicobiologia (DSE/CCEN)
> Programa de Pós Graduação em Neurociência Cognitiva (PPGNeC)
> Universidade Federal da Paraiba (UFPB)
> João Pessoa -Brasil
>
> CV lattes: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flattes.cnpq.br%2F5077085294524842&data=05%7C02%7CTOK-SOCIETY-L%40listserv.jmu.edu%7C6e4a832c23494bbfeef908dc53e015cc%7Ce9333c23cac742f499895cee3d4a79c0%7C0%7C0%7C638477469118394759%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=107POV6U7r5USGkCTwSk%2Fhd0tdY6sqM23lmBEpuAaM8%3D&reserved=0
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>
>
> Em qui., 28 de mar. de 2024 às 13:57, Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <
> [log in to unmask]> escreveu:
> >
> > Hi UTOKers,
> >
> >
> >
> > Here is Part II of my blog series with Ken Baskin:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.psychologytoday.com%2Fus%2Fblog%2Ftheory-of-knowledge%2F202403%2Freligion-why-we-need-to-regain-a-mythos&data=05%7C02%7CTOK-SOCIETY-L%40listserv.jmu.edu%7C6e4a832c23494bbfeef908dc53e015cc%7Ce9333c23cac742f499895cee3d4a79c0%7C0%7C0%7C638477469118394759%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=rX%2BXUsByl9zyJl5lyzxCJMb8vg47LvygI5r6u6FoFfc%3D&reserved=0
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.psychologytoday.com*2Fus*2Fblog*2Ftheory-of-knowledge*2F202403*2Freligion-why-we-need-to-regain-a-mythos&data=05*7C02*7CTOK-SOCIETY-L*40listserv.jmu.edu*7C483f894b6aab426e235808dc535a9433*7Ce9333c23cac742f499895cee3d4a79c0*7C0*7C0*7C638476896006388807*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C40000*7C*7C*7C&sdata=C8ouaq5VAz7xr65*2Byzl0m*2F7JhvlmUtjb6o2gD7O6FnE*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!Ab1_Rw!EJku9BJ7OL9yxHbVRUWsuRvBXZ2xFIO6YKlEz5nZevBEHkgK5I8EQ3ooEjwV0bnmjKg_i3qTKgv211zfcA2wVoumntot5Bs$>
> >
> >
> >
> > In it, we argue that “mythos” is a key domain of justification, the
> interpersonal shared narrative, meaning making that orients folks toward
> what ought to be.
> >
> >
> >
> > We argue that religion can be thought of as the justification system
> that provides a mythos for a culture.
> >
> >
> >
> > Of course, we recognize that this is not how religion is normally
> framed, but we invite folks to update how they think about the concept.
> >
> >
> >
> > Best,
> > Gregg
> >
> > ############################
> >
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