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To: UTOK Society listserv <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Follow Up Blog on the Consciousness Fight
Thread-Topic: Follow Up Blog on the Consciousness Fight
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Thanks Gregg- passing along a compliment for you to receive. You have =
bright mind and a good heart. Your engagement with people in writing and =
on video carries a Rogerian unconditional positive regard. It is greatly =
appreciated!!
=20
Agree- we got a whole lotta transjectivity going on!
=20
So as I=E2=80=99m reading about the I-Quad (Just my first pass/I will =
read more and let it soak in) =E2=80=94yes I=E2=80=99m spot on with you. =
I think I organize some of the identity functions slightly differentland =
I do see the value the way you organize. Perhaps a minor distinction is =
that I organize an interior felt, inside-out stack as :
=20
Metacognitive-transjective self. (elements of this fit in the =
human-humanity dialetic) where we operate from highest wisdom. We feel =
into deep time. As you write, become a good ancestor. I think about this =
level of a transjective loop of metacognition that applies to self, =
world, other. Metaphorically, this is where we become an =E2=80=9Cinfinite=
player=E2=80=9D of an infinite game (non-zero sum games). Poetically we =
realize our nature of the ocean waving and each wave unique and =
inseperable from the ocean and all waves. This level is a little like =
=E2=80=9Clucid predictive processing=E2=80=9D or relevance realization =
meta-realizing.=20
I think these higher order self constructions are critical to a 5th =
joint point and including/transcending our nationcentric views in =
worldcentric/cosmocentric frames.
=20
Human Person level=E2=80=94Spot on =E2=80=93 not a lick a difference. =
Private/Public justifying self.=20
As a practice I work on privately feeling =E2=80=9Cgood enough=E2=80=9D =
and publicly =E2=80=9Cgreat enough=E2=80=9D. Good enough meaning if we =
can=E2=80=99t feel good enough (and I know this from experience) we =
might become very busy overachievers. But it=E2=80=99s a rigged game and =
not ultimately satisfying. But if we can transition to genuinely feeling =
good enough- self-compassion/kindness, intrinsic value for being a human =
trying to bring good/truth/beauty into the world, then we can really =
transform our private identity and behavior. This translates into the =
=E2=80=9Cgreat enough=E2=80=9D=E2=80=94where we learn to speak and =
behave from a truthful truth. We speak our truth but are truthful that =
it is partial and evolving. Having epistemic humility about what we know =
but not afraid to express a thoughtful and evolving opinion. We can also =
stand up for what is right while remaining open to changing our minds.
=20
Primate level- Experiential Self=E2=80=94I 100% agree. This hits what I =
was calling the perceiving, feeling, moving animal. As a practice, =
I=E2=80=99ve stumbled into a meditation where I feel into this animal =
genuinely wanting to be safe, secure, and approaching. Seems simple, but =
this type of practice was a game changer in relating to other people in =
the moment to moment.
=20
Awareness- 100% agree. I just list it as the foundational tier of =
identity. I do not think it is uniquely human, but probably unique in =
that it can loop on itself as awareness of awareness. Contemplative =
traditions explore this domain for a long time, commonly using spatial, =
temporal, self-inquiry and surrender practices. Usually these awareness =
practices are interpreted through very different ontologies or not =
discussed at all. When we experientially know this over and over and it =
starts to carry into our moment to moment, we realize we are not =
foundationally the human person avatar. There is a great freedom and =
peace in this. Sometimes people can get stuck here and ignore the rest =
of the stack. I find value in embracing this whole stack.
=20
=20
So as a practice =E2=80=93 every morning and moments through the day- I =
run the identity stack. Check in with the human person, the =
primate/animal, awareness. Then come back up the stack to the =
metacognitive transjective that years ago called the Universe in =
Person=E2=80=A6 ie. The Universe as whole experiencing itself through =
what you would likely call this unique =E2=80=9Cepistemic portal.=E2=80=9D=
=20
=20
As an interior practice I can run the identity stack, but can also look =
at the stack exteriorly as an individuation of the TOK stack, which you =
have written so well. I think the term you might use is a =E2=80=9Cquadrat=
ic ontology=E2=80=9D. Arguably it can be easier to visualize the =
quadratic ontology of matter, life, mind, person running through us. I =
think it helps generate this great connectivity and deep continuity. So =
far, my most moving embodied, relationally engaged transformation comes =
from turning on these inside-out, outside-in holarchical ontologies, =
then extending intra/personal to interpersonal to extra personal.=20
=20
This so far has been so refreshing and exciting to find such alignment. =
I=E2=80=99m having a lot of fun learning from you. Thank you brother =
for what you are doing!! Keep up the great work!!
More to come :)=20
Baron
> On Oct 12, 2023, at 10:23=E2=80=AFAM, Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx =
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>=20
> CAUTION: External
>=20
> Baron,
> Just wanted to say how much I appreciated your stream of =
consciousness here. Our iQuad Coin perspectives clearly have much =
transjective alignment =F0=9F=98=8A!
>=20
> Best,
> Gregg
>=20
> Gregg,
>=20
> Thanks for your response. I will certainly check the blog :)
>=20
> I=E2=80=99m going to borrow =E2=80=9CWell, you are the expert on =
you.=E2=80=9D As a patient, I would find this quite validating that =
I=E2=80=99m seen idiographically as having a unique expertise about me. =
Plus, you haven=E2=80=99t left out the value and context of reliable, =
generalizable knowledge that science and evidence based medicine =
affords. A place for both is explicitly noted from UTOK. Imagine that =
happening more often in medical care by both doctors and patients and =
the novel collaborations!
>=20
> Regarding predictive processing/RR- I found the Experience machine a =
nice read that provokes a lot of thought, including medical =
considerations about perception, pain, and cognitive processing that =
goes awry. There=E2=80=99s a conceptual gap in general medical care =
about these functional disorders . =E2=80=9CI can=E2=80=99t find =
anything wrong=E2=80=9D but the patient has X,Y,Z symptoms. Clearly =
something is wrong and in part may be related to aberrant predictive =
processes. Can be applied clinically types of chronic pain, mood =
disorders, some psychotic symptoms, etc.
>=20
> In my simple take about PP:
> -The brain is not receiving any direct, unmediated messages from the =
ontic world.
> -Rather it receives information that is processed, constructed, and =
implemented as predictive models of world, self, other. Ie. Photons =
reflected are converted to electrochemical messages that are converted =
into information organized and different layers of subcortical/cortical =
neural processing
> -These models are composed of perceptual, emotive, and cognitive =
subsets (Buddhists would call aggregates) that build simpler perceptual =
models with overlays of the motivational and conceptual, metaconceptual =
models.
> -Most of the time we are totally unaware we are =E2=80=9Clooking =
through=E2=80=9D models. Only with examination can with =E2=80=9Clook =
at=E2=80=9D these models (eye glass metaphor).
> -Different practices can work at different levels of a hierarchical =
self-model. Psychotherapy can help us look at implicit cognitive models =
we operate from- ie. Cognitive therapies, psychodynamic therapies =
(relational models we entrained from parents, etc)=E2=80=A6((I know you =
got some great integrative stuff here. I want to own that but just =
mentioning a few elements). The therapy works at self-relational and =
processing emotion/behavioral predictive processes that may not be =
optimal (again oversimplification)
> -Meditation can helps us go =E2=80=9Clower down=E2=80=9D the =
phenomenal self model. We can watch without resistance the steady stream =
of thoughts, images, feelings, perceptions. As attention (RR) =
strengthens we can start, initially at rest, to =E2=80=9Cslow down=E2=80=9D=
the generative model and notice the ongoing stream and even how they =
=E2=80=9Cbuild=E2=80=9D our ordinary models. (ie. Seeing/hearing help =
generate a perceptual world and interception/seeing/feeling generate a =
sense of body/animal-like self). We loosen the hold of our default =
overthinking.
> -Going further down the stack we can lose the differentiation of =
subject/object=E2=80=94one type of nonduality. We can move aggregates =
into the background and attention attending to itself as awareness in =
the foreground and a palpable sense of naturalistic, formless awareness =
feels like the ground of experience from which aggregates of perception, =
feeling, thinking can spin up a sense of world and self. Interestingly =
adding back the predictive models of self-world-other, now are =
experientially known epistemically as arising in consciousness. This =
taps into ancient wisdom from which epistemically all we know is known =
through this experience medium of consciousness. Importantly, this does =
not mean ontically all there is is consciousness.
> -Going up the stack to cognizing about PP/RR, self-world models, =
considering solid objects in the world are mostly space, hyperobjects of =
global climate change or evolution of cosmos all are in a sense this =
higher order of predictive processing applying metacogniton to =
inner/outer contents. In some sense, this can =E2=80=9Cloop=E2=80=9D =
back on identity in a metacogntive, transjective self. As mentioned in =
the other mail, we can come to understand we are consciousness emerging =
through a living organism with a nervous system generating a predictive =
hierarchy of models layering self-world-other and it=E2=80=99s only =
known through the medium of consciousness. This self model is a bit like =
an avatar and is modifiable. This model is inter-related with other =
people/their models but ontically through the deep continuity of the TOK =
planes of existence. It=E2=80=99s a little bit of a mind twister =
conceptually but can make sense as we learn to own our identity stack.
>=20
> I realize this is a little much/compressed for some conceptual =
considerations. The concepts are needed to communicate, but I also have =
come to find this can genuinely be known at least on the idiographic =
side of the coin. Much like we can own the exterior-objective =
onto-epistemic stack (TOK), we can experientially own the identity stack =
generated through PP and use RR effectively. This might mean the =
majority of the time working with people, I=E2=80=99m interacting at a =
person, but while meditating, running, or on the elevator hanging out =
higher/lower levels of the stack.( Dialogos can allow 2 or more people =
to rift together along their stacks :) Also that the higher =
metacognitions start to emanate into lower orders of the identity stack. =
Simultaneously lower levels of awareness and the =
perceiving-feeling-moving animal self emerge into the person and =
metacogntive transjective self to bring deep peace/freedom and =
embodiment so one (like me) is swirling less in the cosmos of thought =
=EF=81=8A
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Thanks for reading this stream of consciousness. Again I will check =
out the blog!
>=20
> Have a great day,
>=20
> Baron
>=20
> ############################
>=20
> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list:
> write to: mailto:[log in to unmask]
> or click the following link:
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: medium; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Thanks Gregg- passing along a =
compliment for you to receive. You have bright mind and a good heart. =
Your engagement with people in writing and on video carries a Rogerian =
unconditional positive regard. It is greatly =
appreciated!!<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in; =
font-size: medium; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;"><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: =
0in; font-size: medium; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Agree- we got =
a whole lotta transjectivity going on!<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: medium; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: medium; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">So as I=E2=80=99m reading about the =
I-Quad (Just my first pass/I will read more and let it soak in) =E2=80=94y=
es I=E2=80=99m spot on with you. I think I organize some of the identity =
functions slightly differentland I do see the value the way you =
organize. Perhaps a minor distinction is that I organize an =
interior felt, inside-out stack as :<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: medium; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;"><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: =
0in; font-size: medium; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;">Metacognitive-transjective self. (elements of =
this fit in the human-humanity dialetic) where we operate from highest =
wisdom. We feel into deep time. As you write, become a good ancestor. I =
think about this level of a transjective loop of metacognition that =
applies to self, world, other. Metaphorically, this is where we become =
an =E2=80=9Cinfinite player=E2=80=9D of an infinite game (non-zero sum =
games). Poetically we realize our nature of the ocean waving and each =
wave unique and inseperable from the ocean and all waves. This level is =
a little like =E2=80=9Clucid predictive processing=E2=80=9D or relevance =
realization meta-realizing. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: medium; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;">I think these higher order self constructions are critical =
to a 5<sup>th</sup> joint point and including/transcending our =
nationcentric views in worldcentric/cosmocentric =
frames.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in; =
font-size: medium; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;"><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: =
0in; font-size: medium; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Human Person =
level=E2=80=94Spot on =E2=80=93 not a lick a difference. Private/Public =
justifying self. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: medium; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;">As a practice I work on privately feeling =E2=80=9Cgood =
enough=E2=80=9D and publicly =E2=80=9Cgreat enough=E2=80=9D. Good enough =
meaning if we can=E2=80=99t feel good enough (and I know this from =
experience) we might become very busy overachievers. But it=E2=80=99s a =
rigged game and not ultimately satisfying. But if we can transition to =
genuinely feeling good enough- self-compassion/kindness, intrinsic value =
for being a human trying to bring good/truth/beauty into the world, then =
we can really transform our private identity and behavior. This =
translates into the =E2=80=9Cgreat enough=E2=80=9D=E2=80=94where we =
learn to speak and behave from a truthful truth. We speak our truth but =
are truthful that it is partial and evolving. Having epistemic humility =
about what we know but not afraid to express a thoughtful and evolving =
opinion. We can also stand up for what is right while remaining open to =
changing our minds.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: =
0in; font-size: medium; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;"><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: =
0in; font-size: medium; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Primate =
level- Experiential Self=E2=80=94I 100% agree. This hits what I was =
calling the perceiving, feeling, moving animal. As a practice, I=E2=80=99v=
e stumbled into a meditation where I feel into this animal genuinely =
wanting to be safe, secure, and approaching. Seems simple, but this type =
of practice was a game changer in relating to other people in the moment =
to moment.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in; =
font-size: medium; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;"><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: =
0in; font-size: medium; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Awareness- =
100% agree. I just list it as the foundational tier of identity. I do =
not think it is uniquely human, but probably unique in that it can loop =
on itself as awareness of awareness. Contemplative traditions explore =
this domain for a long time, commonly using spatial, temporal, =
self-inquiry and surrender practices. Usually these awareness =
practices are interpreted through very different ontologies or not =
discussed at all. When we experientially know this over and over and it =
starts to carry into our moment to moment, we realize we are not =
foundationally the human person avatar. There is a great freedom and =
peace in this. Sometimes people can get stuck here and ignore the rest =
of the stack. I find value in embracing this whole =
stack.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in; =
font-size: medium; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;"><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: =
0in; font-size: medium; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;"><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: =
0in; font-size: medium; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">So as a =
practice =E2=80=93 every morning and moments through the day- I run the =
identity stack. Check in with the human person, the primate/animal, =
awareness. Then come back up the stack to the metacognitive transjective =
that years ago called the Universe in Person=E2=80=A6 ie. The Universe =
as whole experiencing itself through what you would likely call this =
unique =E2=80=9Cepistemic portal.=E2=80=9D <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: medium; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: medium; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">As an interior practice I can run the =
identity stack, but can also look at the stack exteriorly as an =
individuation of the TOK stack, which you have written so well. I think =
the term you might use is a =E2=80=9Cquadratic ontology=E2=80=9D. =
Arguably it can be easier to visualize the quadratic ontology of matter, =
life, mind, person running through us. I think it helps generate this =
great connectivity and deep continuity. So far, my most moving embodied, =
relationally engaged transformation comes from turning on these =
inside-out, outside-in holarchical ontologies, then extending =
intra/personal to interpersonal to extra =
personal. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: =
0in; font-size: medium; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;"><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: =
0in; font-size: medium; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">This so far =
has been so refreshing and exciting to find such alignment. I=E2=80=99m =
having a lot of fun learning from you. Thank you brother for =
what you are doing!! Keep up the great work!!<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: medium; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><br></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: medium; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;">More to come :) </p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: medium; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;"><br></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in; =
font-size: medium; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Baron</p>
<div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Oct 12, 2023, at 10:23=E2=80=AF=
AM, Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <[log in to unmask]> wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div>CAUTION: =
External<br><br>Baron,<br> Just wanted to say how much I =
appreciated your stream of consciousness here. Our iQuad Coin =
perspectives clearly have much transjective alignment =
=F0=9F=98=8A!<br><br>Best,<br>Gregg<br><br>Gregg,<br><br>Thanks for your =
response. I will certainly check the blog :)<br><br>I=E2=80=99m going to =
borrow =E2=80=9CWell, you are the expert on you.=E2=80=9D As a patient, =
I would find this quite validating that I=E2=80=99m seen idiographically =
as having a unique expertise about me. Plus, you haven=E2=80=99t left =
out the value and context of reliable, generalizable knowledge that =
science and evidence based medicine affords. A place for both is =
explicitly noted from UTOK. Imagine that happening more often in medical =
care by both doctors and patients and the novel =
collaborations!<br><br>Regarding predictive processing/RR- I found the =
Experience machine a nice read that provokes a lot of thought, including =
medical considerations about perception, pain, and cognitive processing =
that goes awry. There=E2=80=99s a conceptual gap in general medical care =
about these functional disorders . =E2=80=9CI can=E2=80=99t find =
anything wrong=E2=80=9D but the patient has X,Y,Z symptoms. Clearly =
something is wrong and in part may be related to aberrant predictive =
processes. Can be applied clinically types of chronic pain, mood =
disorders, some psychotic symptoms, etc.<br><br>In my simple take about =
PP:<br>-The brain is not receiving any direct, unmediated messages from =
the ontic world.<br>-Rather it receives information that is processed, =
constructed, and implemented as predictive models of world, self, other. =
Ie. Photons reflected are converted to electrochemical messages that are =
converted into information organized and different layers of =
subcortical/cortical neural processing<br>-These models are composed of =
perceptual, emotive, and cognitive subsets (Buddhists would call =
aggregates) that build simpler perceptual models with overlays of the =
motivational and conceptual, metaconceptual models.<br>-Most of the time =
we are totally unaware we are =E2=80=9Clooking through=E2=80=9D models. =
Only with examination can with =E2=80=9Clook at=E2=80=9D these models =
(eye glass metaphor).<br>-Different practices can work at different =
levels of a hierarchical self-model. Psychotherapy can help us look at =
implicit cognitive models we operate from- ie. Cognitive therapies, =
psychodynamic therapies (relational models we entrained from parents, =
etc)=E2=80=A6((I know you got some great integrative stuff here. I want =
to own that but just mentioning a few elements). The therapy works at =
self-relational and processing emotion/behavioral predictive processes =
that may not be optimal (again oversimplification)<br>-Meditation can =
helps us go =E2=80=9Clower down=E2=80=9D the phenomenal self model. We =
can watch without resistance the steady stream of thoughts, images, =
feelings, perceptions. As attention (RR) strengthens we can start, =
initially at rest, to =E2=80=9Cslow down=E2=80=9D the generative model =
and notice the ongoing stream and even how they =E2=80=9Cbuild=E2=80=9D =
our ordinary models. (ie. Seeing/hearing help generate a perceptual =
world and interception/seeing/feeling generate a sense of =
body/animal-like self). We loosen the hold of our default =
overthinking.<br>-Going further down the stack we can lose the =
differentiation of subject/object=E2=80=94one type of nonduality. We can =
move aggregates into the background and attention attending to itself as =
awareness in the foreground and a palpable sense of naturalistic, =
formless awareness feels like the ground of experience from which =
aggregates of perception, feeling, thinking can spin up a sense of world =
and self. Interestingly adding back the predictive models of =
self-world-other, now are experientially known epistemically as arising =
in consciousness. This taps into ancient wisdom from which epistemically =
all we know is known through this experience medium of consciousness. =
Importantly, this does not mean ontically all there is is =
consciousness.<br>-Going up the stack to cognizing about PP/RR, =
self-world models, considering solid objects in the world are mostly =
space, hyperobjects of global climate change or evolution of cosmos all =
are in a sense this higher order of predictive processing applying =
metacogniton to inner/outer contents. In some sense, this can =E2=80=9Cloo=
p=E2=80=9D back on identity in a metacogntive, transjective self. As =
mentioned in the other mail, we can come to understand we are =
consciousness emerging through a living organism with a nervous system =
generating a predictive hierarchy of models layering self-world-other =
and it=E2=80=99s only known through the medium of consciousness. This =
self model is a bit like an avatar and is modifiable. This model is =
inter-related with other people/their models but ontically through the =
deep continuity of the TOK planes of existence. It=E2=80=99s a little =
bit of a mind twister conceptually but can make sense as we learn to own =
our identity stack.<br><br>I realize this is a little much/compressed =
for some conceptual considerations. The concepts are needed to =
communicate, but I also have come to find this can genuinely be known at =
least on the idiographic side of the coin. Much like we can own the =
exterior-objective onto-epistemic stack (TOK), we can experientially own =
the identity stack generated through PP and use RR effectively. This =
might mean the majority of the time working with people, I=E2=80=99m =
interacting at a person, but while meditating, running, or on the =
elevator hanging out higher/lower levels of the stack.( Dialogos can =
allow 2 or more people to rift together along their stacks :) Also that =
the higher metacognitions start to emanate into lower orders of the =
identity stack. Simultaneously lower levels of awareness and the =
perceiving-feeling-moving animal self emerge into the person and =
metacogntive transjective self to bring deep peace/freedom and =
embodiment so one (like me) is swirling less in the cosmos of thought =
=EF=81=8A<br><br><br><br>Thanks for reading this stream of =
consciousness. Again I will check out the blog!<br><br>Have a great =
day,<br><br>Baron<br><br>############################<br><br>To =
unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list:<br>write to: =
mailto:[log in to unmask]<br>or click the =
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quote></div><br></body></html>=
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