Right. The comparisons I've been finding odious 
in the primary race are the ones where racism is 
dismissed in favor of a focus on sexism, and 
vice-versa. Now, though, racist dog-whistles, 
inuendoes, and blatant remarks are flying thick 
and fast and it's only gonna get worse. Fasten 
your seatbelts, everybody, because we're in for a very bumpy ride.
Hilde

At 09:32 AM 6/10/2008, Gaile Pohlhaus wrote:
>Chris and Alison, thanks for these 
>clarifications and further thoughts.  I do think 
>it is helpful to think through the differences, 
>similarities, ways in which axes of oppression 
>cross and use one another, etc..  Without such 
>comparisons I would not have been able to have 
>made the analysis I sent--that a purportedly 
>feminist point has an effect that furthers 
>racism (and so undermines feminism).  So I think 
>what I have stated (or the fact of my stating 
>it) is consonant with your remarks, Chris.  My 
>main criticism is that the effect of this 
>particular comparison is deleterious insofar as 
>it obscures racism for the sake of foregrounding 
>sexism thereby highlighting the concerns of 
>white women while splitting all other women (at least) in two.
>
>--- On Tue, 6/10/08, Alison Jaggar <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > From: Alison Jaggar <[log in to unmask]>
> > Subject: Re: NYTimes.com: Judith Warner: Woman in Charge, Women Who Charge
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Date: Tuesday, June 10, 2008, 6:00 AM
> > Obama himself has been fascinated by the complex
> > relationships between
> > gender, race, class, and nation. I have just read his
> > DREAMS FROM MY FATHER,
> > which I take to be a meditation on the anguish of
> > constructing a livable
> > black masculinity by a dark-skinned young man who was
> > raised by a devoted
> > white mother and grandparents in the shadow of an absent
> > and at least
> > unofficially polygamous African father who gave him the
> > Islamic name of
> > Hussein. As a community organizer in Chicago, Obama
> > reflects on the
> > multitude of ways in which black men try to build
> > identities that enable
> > self-respect and dignity while promoting social change.
> > He's also very much
> > aware of the distinctively gendered burdens borne by poor
> > women both in
> > Chicago and in Kenya.
> >
> > Alison
> >
> > On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Chris Cuomo
> > <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > > I respectfully disagree Hilde. I don't think they
> > are odious, unless they
> > > are meant to imply that sexism is "worse"
> > than racism, or that Americans (or
> > > whoever) are more enlightened concerning race than
> > they are about gender.
> > > Comparisons do not necessarily imply a hierarchy of
> > oppressions. Personally
> > > I find the comparisons useful in understanding the
> > distinct workings of
> > > various forms of oppression, and I believe it's
> > important and beneficial to
> > > track the ways that racisms, gender oppressions, and
> > other forms of
> > > xenophobia are distinct and not necessarily parallel
> > or even similar. How
> > > can feminists of any race or ethnicity and
> > anti-racists of any gender not be
> > > fascinated by the different treatments of (masculine)
> > race and
> > > (white-privileged) gender by the U.S. media monster,
> > in relation to the
> > > Obama/Clinton showdown? If analyses of such
> > differences are oversimplified
> > > or they become a way of downplaying the significance
> > of one form of harm
> > > rather than another, that's a problem (perhaps
> > this is the criticism of
> > > Warner?). But it seems to me that  to refuse to
> > compare would be to miss a
> > > very rich philosophical/political opportunity. And I
> > don't know many
> > > thoughtful people who are not comparing, and drawing
> > important lessons for
> > > future progressive politics, if there is such a future
> > in this country.
> > > Chris
> > >
> > >
> > > On Jun 8, 2008, at 8:19 PM, Hilde Lindemann wrote:
> > >
> > > Thanks, Gaile Jr., for saying what I wanted to say
> > myself. These
> > > comparisons are odious and they hurt people.
> > > Best,
> > > Hilde
> > >
> > > At 02:47 PM 6/8/2008, you wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes, indeed.
> > >
> > > I wonder what people think about the chances of
> > Obama's success, given the
> > > hard and deep reality of racism in the US.  Is this
> > country really ready to
> > > elect a black president?
> > >
> > > Joan
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >  *From:* Feminist ethics and social theory
> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]>]
> > > *On Behalf Of *Janine Jones JCJONES2
> > > *Sent:* Sunday, June 08, 2008 2:34 PM
> > > *To:* [log in to unmask]
> > > *Subject:* Re: FW: NYTimes.com: Judith Warner: Woman
> > in Charge, Women Who
> > > Charge
> > >
> > > And piggy-backing on what you say here, Gail (thanks
> > for your comments), a
> > > lot of racist comments directed at Obama and his
> > voters/supporters were not
> > > conceivable as such, for the reasons you give.  Front
> > certain viewpoints it
> > > was absolutely clear that Obama dealt with a great
> > deal of unnamed, dare I
> > > say unnameable racism.  In postings a couple of weeks
> > ago Sarah Hoagland
> > > made reference to the construction of ignorance. (She
> > was referencing
> > > Charles Mills, who is concerned with certain forms of
> > cognitive
> > > dissonance.)  I think that leaving things unnamed,
> > making them unnameable --
> > > e.g. certain forms of racism -- is one of the key ways
> > in which ignorance is
> > > constructed.   As you say, racism and sexism operate
> > in different ways.
> > > Going hand-in-hand with Mills project one might ask
> > both why certain forms
> > > of racism are unnamed, they have become unnameable,
> > and what are the effects
> > > of the kind of ignorance thereby constructed.
> > > -----Feminist ethics and social theory
> > <[log in to unmask]>
> > > wrote: -----
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > From: Gaile Pohlhaus <[log in to unmask]>
> > > Sent by: Feminist ethics and social theory
> > <[log in to unmask]>
> > > Date: 06/08/2008 01:46PM
> > > Subject: Re: FW: NYTimes.com: Judith Warner: Woman in
> > Charge, Women Who
> > > Charge
> > >
> > > I think it is very important that we recognize the
> > amount of misogyny that
> > > has transpired over H. Clinton's bid for the
> > nomination and I also think
> > > juxtaposing that misogyny to the popularity of Sex in
> > the City is brilliant
> > > (a show that my students continue to tell me is
> > "really diverse"­because
> > > each of the 4 women have really different attitudes
> > about sex...  there are
> > > so many different ways white women can relate
> > themselves to men!  Imagine
> > > that?).  Still, I am not sure how helpful it is to say
> > "if similarly hateful
> > > racial remarks had been made about Obama, our nation
> > would have turned
> > > itself inside out in a paroxysm of soul-searching and
> > shame.   Had
> > > mainstream commentators in 2000 speculated, say, that
> > Joe Lieberman had a
> > > nose for dough, or made funny Shylock references,
> > heads would have rolled."
> > > Racism and anti-Semitism don't operate in the
> > exact same ways that sexism
> > > and misogyny do, so why would we expect such easy
> > comparisons?  While I
> > > imagine
> > >  the statement is intended to emphasize how far we
> > have *not* come with
> > > regard to sexism and misogyny, it can (and I think
> > does) have the effect of
> > > making it seem like we *have* come a long way with
> > regard to racism and
> > > anti-semitism/Christo-normativity. And the ironic
> > thing (to my mind) is that
> > > one of the reasons (I believe) that we don't hear
> > blatant racist jokes out
> > > in the open in the media is precisely because white
> > America wants so much to
> > > pretend that race & racism do not exist anymore
> > (one of the ways racism
> > > operates: problem? what problem?) ­so it would seem
> > that many would be very
> > > quick to read the statement in the "wow racism
> > just doesn't exist anymore,
> > > does it?" way. Consequently, the _effect_ of the
> > statement is to make a
> > > (purportedly) feminist point off the backs of people
> > of color and
> > > nonChristians, isn't it?
> > >
> > > There's been plenty of racism abounding in this
> > primary and the Obamas
> > > lives have been plenty disrupted by it--they can't
> > even join a new religious
> > > community until the campaign is over for fear that
> > reporters will
> > > continually disrupt that community hoping to get sound
> > bites that will scare
> > > white America.  The fact that that racism comes in
> > ways that are different
> > > from the ways in which sexism comes should be no
> > surprise to this list.
> > > Easy comparisons at the expense of nonChristian women
> > and women of color
> > > only undermine feminist work.
> > >
> > > In Solidarity,
> > >
> > > GP, jr.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  Hilde Lindemann
> > > Professor of Philosophy
> > > 503 South Kedzie Hall
> > > Michigan State University
> > > East Lansing, MI 48824
> > > 517-353-3981
> > > [log in to unmask]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Alison M. Jaggar
> > Professor of Philosophy and Women and Gender Studies
> > Philosophy Graduate Director and Associate Chair
> > Department of Philosophy, UCB 232,
> > University of Colorado at Boulder
> > Boulder, CO 80309-0232
> > 303-492-8997 (direct line)
> > 303-492-6132 (dept. office)
> > 303-492-8386 (fax)
>
>
>


Hilde Lindemann
Philosophy Department
503 South Kedzie Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
tel: (517) 353-3981
fax: (517) 432-1320
[log in to unmask]