Good discussion.  Still, I need to de-enroll in this list.

Will someone please tell me how?

Thanks, L


On Jun 27, 2008, at 7:42 PM, Alison Nicole Crane Reiheld wrote:

> I agree that fatherhood cannot be equated with masculinity in a  
> healthy way any more than motherhood can be equated with femininity  
> (AKA What It Means To Be A Woman) in a healthy way.
> However, note that the authors are coming from the perspective of  
> being co-authors of a book called "Be A Father To Your Child", the  
> idea being that if you have been a male progenitor to a child, you  
> have parenting obligations and cannot leave that aspect of having a  
> child solely to women.  This is not at all the same as saying that  
> being a good man is being a good father.  It's saying that once  
> you've fathered a child, part of being a good man is being a good  
> father. It's not good for women who are mothers to have men's  
> identities be INcompatible with being fathers.  And that's a family  
> values perspective that I find fairly unobjectionable and even  
> laudable from a feminist perspective.
> This is, it's worth noting, not just a problem in black  
> communities, lest we somehow think that family values issues are  
> not potentially feminist issues in American society in general.   
> Feminist literature stemming from the lives of women from numerous  
> backgrounds has long critiqued the idea that caregiving and  
> childrearing are seen primarily as women's work, and that this work  
> benefits society and especially those whose children are reared  
> while placing disproportionate burdens on women qua caregivers.   
> Men who take on major caregiving duties toward their children are  
> often seen as either doing "women's work" or as going above and  
> beyond the call of duty (supererogatory), whereas women doing the  
> same thing for their children are seen as doing gender-appropriate  
> labor that is obligatory rather than supererogatory.  If indeed  
> black masculinity is INcompatible with this kind of work--whether  
> to the same or different degrees, in the same or in different ways,  
> as white European masculinity--it's not good for females who are  
> daughters or who are mothers.
> Ultimately, it is good to see a strong and explicit statement  
> acknowledging that the current choices of many have not been good  
> for black women and girls, that this has to change, and that part  
> of the path to correcting this is starting by listening to what  
> black women and girls say about their lives.  This latter part in  
> particular often gets left out of male calls for better treatment  
> of women, in my understanding of the history of male involvement in  
> pro-women movements in many cultures and at many points in history.
> This was an interesting and thought-provoking original post.
> Thanks very much to Sarah, and to Emanuela and Shay for your  
> equally thought-provoking comments.
> Best,
> Alison Reiheld
>
>
> Shay Welch writes:
>> I agree.  However, if there are no (flawed) beginnings then there  
>> is no
>> progression at all.
>> Shay On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 6:10 PM, Emanuela Bianchi  
>> <[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>>> While in some ways I indeed find this fabulous in its critical
>>> sensibility, I am also wary of the aggressive moralism of the  
>>> "family
>>> values" discourse it promotes.  I am not at all sure that  
>>> "families need
>>> fathers" nor that the 'way forward' for black masculinity lies in  
>>> any
>>> necessary way in being a father to children.
>>> Just my 2 (white, queer, feminist) cents.
>>> Emma
>>>
>>> --
>>>  Emanuela Bianchi
>>>  Visiting Assistant Professor
>>>  Department of Philosophy
>>>  Haverford College
>>>
>>> ----- Original message -----
>>> From: "Sarah Hoagland" <[log in to unmask]>
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 01:29:06 -0500
>>> Subject: FW: This is Fabulous...
>>> ------ Forwarded Message
>>> From: Jackie Anderson <[log in to unmask]>
>>> Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 20:17:18 -0700 (PDT)
>>> Subject: This is Fabulous...
>>>
>>> Statement of Black Men Against
>>> the Exploitation of Black Women
>>> From Aaron Lloyd •  Adisa Banjoko •  Alford Young, Jr. • Byron  
>>> Hurt •
>>> Cheo Tyehimba • Davey D. • Dion Chavis • James Peterson • Kevin  
>>> Powell
>>> • Kevin Williams • Lasana Hotep • Loren S. Harris • Lumumba
>>> Akinwole-Bandele • Mo Beasley, Jr. • Saddi Khali • Shaun Neblett •
>>> Steven G. Fullwood • Thabiti Boone • William Jelani Cobb *
>>> Six years have gone by since we first heard the allegations that R.
>>> Kelly had filmed himself having sex with an underage girl. During  
>>> that
>>> time we have seen the videotape being hawked on street corners in  
>>> Black
>>> communities, as if the dehumanization of one of our own was not at
>>> stake. We have seen entertainers rally around him and watched his
>>> career reach new heights despite the grave possibility that he had
>>> molested and urinated on a 13-year old girl. We saw African  
>>> Americans
>>> purchase millions of his records despite the long history of such
>>> charges swirling around the singer. Worst of all, we have  
>>> witnessed the
>>> sad vision of Black people cheering his acquittal with a fervor  
>>> usually
>>> reserved for community heroes and shaken our heads at the  
>>> stunning lack
>>> of outrage over the verdict in the broader Black community.
>>> Over these years, justice has been delayed and it has been denied.
>>> Perhaps a jury can accept R. Kelly's absurd defense and find
>>> "reasonable doubt" despite the fact that the film was shot in his  
>>> home
>>> and featured a man who was identical to him. Perhaps they doubted  
>>> that
>>> the young woman in the courtroom was, in fact, the same person  
>>> featured
>>> in the ten year old video. But there is no doubt about this: some  
>>> young
>>> Black woman was filmed being degraded and exploited by a much older
>>> Black man, some daughter of our community was left unprotected, and
>>> somewhere another Black woman is being molested, abused or raped and
>>> our callous handling of this case will make it that much more  
>>> difficult
>>> for her to come forward and be believed. And each of us is  
>>> responsible
>>> for it.
>>> We have proudly seen the community take to the streets in defense of
>>> Black men who have been the victims of police violence or racist
>>> attacks, but that righteous outrage only highlights the silence
>>> surrounding this verdict.
>>> We believe that our judgment has been clouded by celebrity- 
>>> worship; we
>>> believe that we are a community in crisis and that our addiction to
>>> sexism has reached such an extreme that many of us cannot even
>>> recognize child molestation when we see it.
>>> We recognize the absolute necessity for Black men to speak in a  
>>> single,
>>> unified voice and state something that should be absolutely obvious:
>>> that the women of our community are full human beings, that we  
>>> cannot
>>> and will not tolerate the poisonous hatred of women that has already
>>> damaged our families, relationships and culture.
>>> We believe that our daughters are precious and they deserve our
>>> protection. We believe that Black men must take responsibility  
>>> for our
>>> contributions to this terrible state of affairs and make an  
>>> effort to
>>> change our lives and our communities.
>>> This is about more than R. Kelly's claims to innocence. It is  
>>> about our
>>> survival as a community. Until we believe that our daughters,  
>>> sisters,
>>> mothers, wives and friends are worthy of justice, until we  
>>> believe that
>>> rape, domestic violence and the casual sexism that permeates our
>>> culture are absolutely unacceptable, until we recognize that the  
>>> first
>>> priority of any community is the protection of its young, we will
>>> remain in this tragic dead-end.
>>> We ask that you:
>>> Sign your name if you are a Black male who supports this statement:
>>> www.petitiononline.com/rkelly/petition.html
>>> Forward this statement to your entire network and ask other Black  
>>> males
>>> to sign as well.
>>> Make a personal pledge to never support R. Kelly again in any  
>>> form or
>>> fashion, unless he publicly apologizes for his behavior and gets  
>>> help
>>> for his long-standing sexual conduct, in his private life and in his
>>> music.
>>> Make a commitment in your own life to never to hit, beat, molest,  
>>> rape,
>>> or exploit Black females in any way and, if you have, to take  
>>> ownership
>>> for your behavior, seek emotional and spiritual help, and, over  
>>> time,
>>> become a voice against all forms of Black female exploitation.
>>> Challenge other Black males, no matter their age, class or  
>>> educational
>>> background, or status in life, if they engage in behavior and  
>>> language
>>> that is exploitative and or disrespectful to Black females in any  
>>> way.
>>> If you say nothing, you become just as guilty.
>>> Learn to listen to the voices, concerns, needs, criticisms, and
>>> challenges of Black females, because they are our equals, and  
>>> because
>>> in listening we will learn a new and different kind of Black  
>>> manhood.
>>> We support the work of scholars, activists and organizations that  
>>> are
>>> helping to redefine Black manhood in healthy ways. Additional  
>>> resources
>>> are listed below.
>>> Books:
>>> Who's Gonna Take the Weight, Kevin Powell
>>> New Black Man, Mark Anthony Neal
>>> Deals with the Devil and Other Reasons to Riot, Pearl Cleage
>>> Traps: African American Men on Gender and Sexuality, Rudolph Byrd  
>>> and
>>> Beverly Guy-Sheftall
>>> Films:
>>> I Am A Man: Black Masculinity in America by Byron Hurt
>>> Hip Hop: Beyond Beats and Rhymes by Byron Hurt
>>> NO! The Rape Documentary by Aishah Simmons
>>> Organizations:
>>> The 2025 Campaign: www.2025bmb.org
>>> Men Stopping Violence: www.menstoppingviolence.org
>>>
>>> * The aforementioned men are contributors to the new anthology BE A
>>> FATHER TO YOUR CHILD: REAL TALK FROM BLACK MEN ON FAMILY, LOVE, AND
>>> FATHERHOOD, Edited by April R. Silver. Only the aforementioned are
>>> signees to the statement issued above.
>>>
>>> To share YOUR thoughts, find out more about the signees or
>>> the BE A FATHER book, please visit the official website:
>>> www.beafathertoyourchild.com
>>>
>>>
>>> ------ End of Forwarded Message
>