Hi folks. Thanks everyone for the genuinely thoughtful comments and insights. Too many to acknowledge properly, but I certainly continue to learn and recalibrate as always based on the knowledge being shared. To extend the discussion a bit further, as a non-psychologist, I have a question for which I've never had a truly comprehensive answer, i.e., one that resonates cognitively, physically, emotionally, and spiritually.
For those who have been severely abused (e.g., repeatedly beaten horribly or raped), how does one truly heal and continue on one's path toward enlightenment, or as Gregg has formulated to "be that which enhances dignity and well-being with integrity" - but especially the capacity to "love the abuser" or "love the rapist"? For some small bit of context, I'm not talking about in the immediacy of situations where a person is being directly threatened, abused, or raped & one has to try to find safety perhaps even to survive (and, yes, my troubled self knows that this literally happens to millions of people across the planet). The conventional wisdom has been something along the lines of "love the sinner, but hate the sin". Well, that may be a reasonable start - but certainly doesn't solve the problem. And such a "philosophical position" clearly does not solve the problem if the person's still in a position of power or influence while continuing to act in violent ways -- not just in politics, but perhaps at work or, most commonly, in the context of one's intimate, interpersonal relationships.
Unlike McCartney, I'm not "speaking words of wisdom," but rather "seeking words of wisdom"... especially from those of you on the list who have figured out healthier and more enlightened responses to the problem than I have yet formulated! Thanks, -Joe
Dr. Joseph H. Michalski
Professor
King’s University College at Western University
266 Epworth Avenue, DL-201
London, Ontario, Canada N6A 2M3
Tel: (519) 433-3491
Email: [log in to unmask]
______________________
eiπ + 1 = 0
________________________________
From: tree of knowledge system discussion <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Chance McDermott <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, October 4, 2020 12:15 AM
To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: TOK. Opinion | At His Core, Trump Is an Immoralist - The New York Times
A sincere aside to the humor: Psychopathic personalities respond with contempt to compassion because, if they are developmental psychopaths, compassion preceded abuse from betraying parent figures. Biological psychopaths simply view it as weakness to be exploited should they choose to do so.
There's no cure. Psychopaths, for our functional purposes, respond primarily to reward contingencies, and so can never be trusted to "do the right thing" on its own sake, because they do not have the capacity to care and build a moral framework from that exercised capacity.
Sending people in to "love the psychopath" back to health is setting them up for exploitation and abuse
On Sat, Oct 3, 2020 at 11:02 PM Chance McDermott <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
Cory,
I agree. It's good to let Trump get all of this out of his system, and I'm gald republicans have been gentle with him to allow him to realize, on his own, that despotism isn't all he thought it would be.
Like letting him eat a whole pint of ice cream until he gets a stomach ache, he will realizes that transforming his personality cult into a private army is a big headache and actually removes him further from his goal of being loved and appreciated
On Sat, Oct 3, 2020 at 10:53 PM Cory David Barker <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
Hi everyone,
It's important to keep in mind that people who exhibit lower stage moral behaviour are doing so because they were born into a cultural ethos that generated it, and/or have an underlying neurological disorder. Development across domains does not end when a person reaches adulthood. Development keeps going. Altough we work towards defending rights and protecting progress, we also need to have patience and understanding towards people with lower moral stages. The believe what they believe and do is justified. It's very difficult to maintain empathetic approach when people act in ways that make circumstances worse. But they don't realizee any better values. It's necessary to uphold higher moral behaviour towards them in the face of their lower stage moral behaviours, and we can protect ourselves from being exploited in the process.
People do not respond positively to anyone attempting to dominate their logic, morals, and values. And people cannot skip stages. People have to have experiences at a given stage which act as the building blocks for constructing the next higher stage. Change needs to make sense to a person depending on the orientation in which they are situated. While it is true that there needs to be consequences for actions, at the same time we need to show people a lot of patience, and when people change and show us higher stage behaviours, we need to not be throwing in their face all of the negative things and contradictions that they've done in the past, but embraced that positive behavior with understanding and sincere empathy. It's the only way for things to move forward ethically.
Cory
On Sat, Oct 3, 2020, 11:24 AM Nicholas Lattanzio <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
Peter and Cole,
That is exactly the direction I'm pointing to, but it should not be overstated such that the impression becomes that Trump doesn't know the difference between right and wrong; he does. And his ability to appeal to certain morals and values in his voting base is evidence he has enough of an the capacity to understand the importance and centrality of morals and values to people's beliefs and behaviors, although I don't think his understanding is very refined or nuanced other than in the ways he can use them to satisfy and reinforce his narcissistic tendencies. To the latter end of that statement, it is fairly clear Trump's own morals, if they are present, are of a negative value. In other words he may have a moral related to helping others, but it is not actualized, it is not a moral one sees in his actions, except to his fanbase, which is big and loud enough to satiate his narcissistic needs for attention and is rewarded with becoming the U.S. president, both internally and externally reinforcing his belief that he is a moral righteous person who helps others. Thus, his understanding of morals is there but very vague and largely unconscious to him.
Cole, your point is 100% true and contributes to the rise in egocentricity (versus narcissism as a trait) on both sides of the political line because the click-bait sounds bytes that get selectively funneled onto your Facebook feeds and search suggestions trigger everyone. It is nearly impossible to see a short clip or read a headline with salient words priming you one way or the other and not personalize it and get more entrenched in the belief.
Regards,
Nicholas G. Lattanzio, Psy.D.
On Sat, Oct 3, 2020, 10:54 AM Peter Jones <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
Does being an immoralist require a concept of morals? I doubt his psychopathic narcissistic personality disorder allows him comprehension of morals or empathy.
That’s my professional opinion as a human.
P
Sent from where I’m being.
On Oct 3, 2020, at 10:48 AM, Cole Butler <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
I did not watch the debates, but I do appreciate your point regarding the validity of the claims of Biden's cognitive decline, Nik.
This is something that I've thought about in the past, as it seems really preposterous to make claims about an individual's mental status and cognitive health without subjecting them to any sort of neurological and/or psychological assessment. Of course, several people on this listserv have the requisite training and knowledge to make that type of determination with a decent amount of accuracy. However, I am more so referencing the lay-populace's (e.g., social media) attack on Biden's cognitive decline.
I have been especially concerned by the fact that it is very easy to cut clips and edit them, distort them, and use them as an advantage in making an argument - without actually hearing the individual subject to criticism in conversation. As we all know, this is a highly problematic aspect of online culture, as many people are subjected to this kind of attack.
This led me to question whether or not Biden's cognitive decline is actual clinically problematic cognitive decline, or a media/social media targeted propagandized perception sold to the masses and further perpetuated by the loud and proud on facebook. Of course, Joe Rogan's criticisms in this domain were not helpful, either.
Anyway, my point here isn't to endorse Biden (or Trump), but to bring attention to the problematic nature of media distortion and propagandization in influencing public perception. Indeed, hearing Biden speak at length lends itself to a much different perception than seeing cut-and-compiled clips of stuttering... E.g., see: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtube.com_watch-3Fv-3DymyY7jez0rM-26feature-3Dyoutu.be-26fbclid-3DIwAR3cGKcFsynv4X5bgD3MHKASeA1Shad4VMbTI4dw6Q0XAnr7xhFlLlH7zKE&d=DwIGaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=nWbDLvzjoNnGFh6c_b84VC257qUBR1-EfXZ0vCn19a0&s=h3RcrUc9zQz9NOHlCQTie4Q7KUpRi4E_Dt0BauhrRYM&e= <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtube.com_watch-3Fv-3DymyY7jez0rM-26feature-3Dyoutu.be-26fbclid-3DIwAR3cGKcFsynv4X5bgD3MHKASeA1Shad4VMbTI4dw6Q0XAnr7xhFlLlH7zKE&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=kwR-tX39zsp_v3tb0Uhes1ja0qSoyOa6jtmUyszgB6w&s=VNgJT7heu7ykxq2QE9XkqvlwkuQBkjlXo907Gd4Ocmk&e=>
I also found this article on the topic particularly insightful: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.politico.com_story_2019_08_20_joe-2Dbiden-2Dold-2Dage-2D1468635&d=DwIGaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=nWbDLvzjoNnGFh6c_b84VC257qUBR1-EfXZ0vCn19a0&s=qHVDlD8pM1mtJ0pgJZFov3p6p540gL_1bxwyAnd1GyE&e= <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.politico.com_story_2019_08_20_joe-2Dbiden-2Dold-2Dage-2D1468635&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=kwR-tX39zsp_v3tb0Uhes1ja0qSoyOa6jtmUyszgB6w&s=_dr3d_5x4TMkVvrcAZ496zgoeJO4Z0JlSuQZJue-51g&e=>
“Emily Rogalski, a Northwestern University neuroscientist and associate psychiatry and behavioral sciences professor who specializes in studying superagers, said it’s exceedingly difficult to ‘determine someone’s cognitive abilities simply by knowing someone’s chronological age.’
As for Biden’s prior brain surgeries, Rogalski said she can’t comment because she hasn’t evaluated him.
‘It’s difficult to comment specifically on any one individual’s cognitive status without knowing more deeply about their medical history,’ she said.
Olshansky echoed her point and said it was also ‘inappropriate’ for psychologists and psychiatrists to opine on Trump's mental acuity without having analyzed him. And, he said, it’s a stretch to make candidates' gaffes into something more than understandable human error.”
My best,
Cole Butler
Faculty Specialist
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On Sat, Oct 3, 2020 at 9:30 AM Nicholas Lattanzio <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
Hey all,
Having browsed through some of your comments, I figured I'd add my say.
I don't think Trump is an immoralist or an amoralist, I believe he has a sense of morals that is very vague and susceptable to the influence of others and that is also selectively self-serving, at least in a way that he can twist an actual moral's relevance to evince his claims and resolve any dissonance he experiences.
I watched most of the primary debates and this past week's presidential debate. While Chris Wallace was certainly biased in favor of Biden (I would be to considering Trumps history of demeaning Wallace), I did not see nearly the level of cognitive decline in Biden I had thought I'd seen before. I want to bring more attention to this last point here. While of course people experience cognitive decline can have more lucid days and times of day than their baseline, they typically decline in a way that prohibits any higher levels of function that have been lost already (I.e., they really don't get much better, the best we can do in most cases is slow the decline). What I saw in the presidential debate was not a cognitively declining Biden, it made me reconsider how much decompensation has actually occurred.
Biden has always been a stutterer, his entire life and political career. So we cannot use that as a solid measure of his mental status (at least in the sense that his stuttering has not worsened much in recent years). Most of the apparent mental interference Biden seemed to be experiencing was, from a scientifically-minded approach, most likely caused by Trump speaking over him, which is further demonstrated by Biden's clear concerted efforts to focus on speaking to Wallace and tune out Trump. Of course with both candidates being the age they are, we know that their crystallized knowledge is what they're leaning on the most, as their fluid intelligence is waning, so a level of cognitive decline is to be expected. All in all any assertion of Biden's incompetence due to cognitive decline is not founded by any evidence known to the public (if independent cognitive assessment has occurred, we don't know about it).
Personally, I don't want to vote for either one, they both represent parties that are ultimately owned by the same people, and as long as that is the case we won't see true change regardless of the candidate elected. This is perhaps the most salient area in our societal infrastructure that is set to change with the value-oriented shift that comes part and parcel to the 5th joint point in Gregg's TOK. Keeping our focus on that shift is, IMO, more important than softening the blow of whoever comes out of this election on top (which will likely only speed up the shift itself).
Regards,
Nicholas G. Lattanzio, Psy.D.
On Fri, Oct 2, 2020, 4:56 PM Waldemar Schmidt <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
Poster boy for the autistic dark triad?
Waldemar A Schmidt, PhD, MD
(Perseveret et Percipiunt)
503.631.8044
Strive not to be a success, but rather to be of value. (A Einstein)
On Oct 2, 2020, at 1:11 PM, Chance McDermott <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
To borrow from Trump's communication style himself, I've heard many people say it is highly accurate to call him an autistic psychopath
On Fri, Oct 2, 2020 at 2:06 PM Deepak Loomba <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
Niquie,
Would it then be right to claim Trump as amoralist, Bidne as immoralist or vice-versa?
TY
DL
On 10/3/2020 12:26 AM, Niquie Dworkin wrote:
An amoralist does not believe in morals, an immoralist delights in transgressing.
On Fri, Oct 2, 2020 at 1:29 PM Waldemar Schmidt <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
At the very least, Lene.
Waldemar A Schmidt, PhD, MD
(Perseveret et Percipiunt)
503.631.8044
Strive not to be a success, but rather to be of value. (A Einstein)
On Oct 2, 2020, at 8:17 AM, Lene Rachel Andersen - Nordic Bildung <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
It is a very good comment, but isn't Trump an amoralist?
Best,
Lene
On 02-10-2020 17:09, Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx wrote:
I am traveling but wanted to take the time to share this op Ed
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.nytimes.com_2020_10_01_opinion_trump-2Dethics-2Dimmorality.html&d=DwIGaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=nWbDLvzjoNnGFh6c_b84VC257qUBR1-EfXZ0vCn19a0&s=WCQvdd94Ckp0hpLlfGr1el8JUlJ4WNnC3mW24ydBJP4&e= <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.nytimes.com_2020_10_01_opinion_trump-2Dethics-2Dimmorality.html&d=DwMCaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=HX6n0_NI0EBFgi1f48teJUTR5pl1dUVMAxH4fmAqG10&s=VQh2BCjUj_ChZY716wc9tjGi8tB_-pXkeCI7klO6h2A&e=>
Best,
Gregg
Sent from my iPhone
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