Atom also means undividable, but consists of smaller parts as well. One body is an individual compared to the collective of many bodies. You can divide a collective of bodies into smaller groups, but you can’t divide a single body without it becoming something different than a body. That’s why we call it individual. One individual body. It doesn’t mean that it exists in a vacuum or that it is unchanging. Just as an atom is an individual of many atoms, even though it can be divided into other parts.
I can use body and individual interchangeably – the reason why I am insisting on not giving individual up, is that I am familiar with anti-individualist literature that use those language games as a shallow façade for totalitarian ideology. I’m not saying you are doing that – but I firmly believe we need the individual in order to understand individual freedom, rights and ethics.
But let’s continue this elsewhere, if there is more to discuss.
Over and out.
Elung
________________________________
Fra: tree of knowledge system discussion <[log in to unmask]> på vegne af Alexander Bard <[log in to unmask]>
Sendt: Thursday, October 17, 2019 1:54:31 PM
Til: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
Emne: Re: Basic interactions.
No, all these phenomena belong to the domain called the human body. Not the Individual. Individual means undividable. The body is highly dividible and lacks any ontic center. Consequently the body is not an individual. Elementary logic.
But I'm frankly tired of these discussions with people who have obviously not studied 20th century philosophy or contemporary neuroscience at all but just return my arguments with arrogant oneliners like "have you ever had toothache". That's not even a serious discussion. Also I have promised Gregg that these discussions belong on the Intellectual Deep Web and not on the ToK mailing list which is based on Gregg's own work (which I again recommend that you actually study). Let's keep the ToK focus there and not anywhere else.
Hammurabi's law proves what it is possible to dictate when written language has arrived as a power tool. It is does not prove the existence of anything prior to Hammurabi's law anymore than The Bible proves the existence of The Garden of Eden. To claim anything else is just rubbish. The idea of the undivided primary subject called The Individual is nothing but the by-product of the solitary reading experience in Europe in the 17th century. This is why western "individualism" does not make any sense in for example Africa or East and South Asia. And never will now when it is in deep crisis. But again, we can discuss that (if at all) on the Intellectual Deep Web and not here. Welcome to use this link if you're interested. https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.google.com_forum_-23-21forum_intellectual-2Ddeep-2Dweb&d=DwIF-g&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=RPvhqF07nSJZLrRrYNgkBgwdUKWa32kOyxUmUz759NU&s=GQSYqTOVKIz2M4c5xR6wn5IupTZFNT50TFXzLMqJBKk&e=<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Furldefense.proofpoint.com-252Fv2-252Furl-253Fu-253Dhttps-2D3A-5F-5Fgroups.google.com-5Fforum-5F-2D23-2D21forum-5Fintellectual-2D2Ddeep-2D2Dweb-2526d-253DDwMFaQ-2526c-253DeLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn-5F5nBEmmeq0-2526r-253DHPo1IXYDhKClogP-2DUOpybo6Cfxxz-2DjIYBgjO2gOz4-2DA-2526m-253D4deSZPF-2DpAFqOthszhYec683NUyE7Epc2LOxaPo0x-2Ds-2526s-253DPn2dFqRJYp8ZnXXtzH9RzsbeoH7-5F9XSSi1YRK7BYD0s-2526e-253D-26data-3D02-257C01-257C-257C9042ec2ddb1a4f5657f708d752f90602-257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa-257C1-257C0-257C637069101808898131-26sdata-3DYHI-252F3Pa3EU-252For6FNdK3B2eUdPq9X8gP1TNxg94zM50U-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwIF-g&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=RPvhqF07nSJZLrRrYNgkBgwdUKWa32kOyxUmUz759NU&s=sLwnpK1htXS15XqrBo3RcuGQ_-AaUDPvQZHtJlOxGx0&e=>
Over and out
Alexander Bard
Den tors 17 okt. 2019 kl 12:57 skrev Alexander Elung <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>:
Toothaches, goals, ambitions, choices, will, personality, subjectivity – The individual is the domain of all these phenomena.
Nobody is claiming that the individual is unchanging or exists in a vacuum. You seem to be arguing against a strawman.
Waldemar made a good point earlier about the social individual as a representation of the relationship between the “I” and the “We”.
It’s simply not correct that the individual was invented in 1632. You should read Hammurabi's code 1700BC , which Is structured around the individual as the main subject of law.
The earliest known sources of written law aprox 3000 BC was also based on individual rights. Without the individual there is no such things as rights and culpability for starters, but when you go deeper everything begins to crumble without the individual. It’s not something we can just get rid of through language games – ask your Puerto Rican mother of five.
Best
Elung
Fra: Lene Rachel Andersen - Nordic Bildung / Fremvirke<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Sendt: 17 October 2019 11:45
Til: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Emne: Re: Basic interactions.
Dear Alexander,
Have you ever had toothache?
/ Lene
On 17-10-2019 10:38, Alexander Bard wrote:
Dear Lene
I don't do morality. I do serious science of the effects of communication technologies and information storage and processing. Troughout human history.
The Individual was basically invented by Descartes in 1632 to serve the top-down interests of the European nation-state Napoleonic structure (as it colonized the world and became an ideological hegemony in the 19th century, perfected through the creation of its spin-off, the United States of America).
Humans are social. We come out of a we. We are a massive we. And within that massive global we, we are smaller local we's.
So what philosophy has worked itself toward and neuroscience has proved is that there is no continuous singularity anywhere to be found. It is a linguistic trickl, not a factual reality. The "you" thats society screams at you is just the internalized "I".
The fact that this system has fostered you to believe that you are an individual with freedom and rights only proves how massively successful that system has been at establishing that submission. It served the system well.
Now the internet with its flat structure and enormous pressure toward bottom-up emergences and "eventologies" are changing the game dramatically.
I have read your books, dear Lene, you should treally read and study mine. To avoid further misunderstandings. OK?
Best intentions
Alexander Bard
Den tors 17 okt. 2019 kl 07:18 skrev Lene Rachel Andersen - Nordic Bildung / Fremvirke <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>:
What I hear Alexander say is that digital overlords have the moral right to strip us of our individuality and thus our freedom.
- Or did I hear something that wasn't there?
/ Lene
On 16-10-2019 19:07, Alexander Bard wrote:
Dear Gregg
I believe it is better to move discussions on topics like "the death of individualism" to the Intellectual Deep Web.
It is also a forum better prepared for heated discussions than the ToK mailing list.
The Death of The Individual has been a central topic to European discourse since the 1960s (Lacan, Derrida, Foucault, Deleuze, Kristeva etc).
But the majority of members of this forum are Americans and psychologists rather than philosophers so it makes better sense to move the topic somewhere else.
I personally do not treat "individuals" in my method. I treat people of multiplicity to engage in their own long-term agency as such.
In an increasingly digitalized world, this seems to work wonders. "Finding one's true self" is a myth for airport bookshop self-help books. It is not serious science.
And it is inceeasingly becoming a burdensome myth for an increasingly bitter digital under class. We must do better and think fresh to get around this question.
Those are my ten cents.
Best intentions
Alexander Bard
Den ons 16 okt. 2019 kl 13:47 skrev Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>:
Hi All,
I see this forum as a place for exchanging ideas and exploring “big picture” visions for the future. I also warn against dismissing and hand waving, as that too is a waste of time.
As Joe M. will clearly note from a sociological point of view, there is a social systems view and a view of understanding (in)dividuals as being part of systemic social forces. From such a systems vantage point, I am a node and am typing out this reply in the web of social network exchanges that is unfolding. In other words, my behavior can only be fully understood as part of a larger complex adaptive systems landscape on the Culture-Person (and emerging digital) plane. To the extent we are plugged into each other, we all form a web of behavior that ripples through the universe.
In addition, much of science has focused too much on individual isolated parts. The attached manuscript delineates the profound differences in developmental psychology from what they call a “Split Cartesian Mechanistic” view and a “Process Relational Paradigm”. My own view informed via the ToK/PTB perspective is that these are two different lenses to see the world…one part-into-whole, the other a holistic developmental systems view. It is a figure-ground dynamic. The ToK suggests that it makes sense to side with the Relational Process view in that that view has been largely missing from the scientific discourse and it can be now achieved with much greater relative clarity than in the past. However, it would not be wise to simply toss out the “part view” as if it did not carry any utility. An integrative pluralistic sensibility allows one to hold this dialectic with ease.
Alexander, I think your rhetoric might be impeding some understanding in this forum. Those who have not read Syntheism will likely experience your blanket statements as boarding on the absurd. For example, what does it mean to say that I treat “individuals” in psychotherapy? The individualized treatment plan that I started to construct last night with a new client…what is that? Am I “delusional” when I analyze an individual’s pattern of development, their patterns of investment and influence and justification? Clearly, at that level of specificity, you are the one that needs to defend the claim. I know that you define “dividuals” and “subjective agents” such that the language games do line up much more than your rhetoric suggests.
So, my recommendation is that we should be clear about our meaning to foster mutual understanding before making broad claims about “suitcase words” like individualism which mean a host of different things to different people in different contexts.
Peace,
G
___________________________________________
Gregg Henriques, Ph.D.
Professor
Department of Graduate Psychology
216 Johnston Hall
MSC 7401
James Madison University
Harrisonburg, VA 22807
(540) 568-7857 (phone)
(540) 568-4747 (fax)
Be that which enhances dignity and well-being with integrity.
Check out my Theory of Knowledge blog at Psychology Today at:
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From: tree of knowledge system discussion <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> On Behalf Of Alexander Bard
Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2019 6:45 AM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Basic interactions.
Dear Frank and Waldemar
We can either sit and exchange niceties and make this forum a competition for who shows the most humility. Like a classical salon. Fine.
Or we could try to move forward and challenge each other in a friendly, respectful but firm manner. I would definitely prefer the latter. Because I consider the first option a waste of valuable time.
When I say that there is social and only social as in relational and only relational I mean exactly this.
So where is this dear "Individual" actually located? Where does this continous undivided Individual reside?
To me it's beginning to sound like old church ladies who insist that God must exist ontically because they are only comfortable with God existing and have never contemplated any alternatives. So they just raise the cloud where God resides higher and higher until there are no more clouds left to put him on. In what way is the insistant defense of "The Individual" any different?
I see only systems called bodies and systems called brains within those bodies. And then systems called technologies around those bodies and brains. And then highly functional delusions of continuity and unity as "awarenesses" within these systems. But delusions nevertheless.
Where I guess the burden of evidence lies with you and not with me, gentlemen!
Best intentions
Alexander Bard
Den tis 15 okt. 2019 kl 22:01 skrev Frank Ambrosio <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>:
Dear Waldemar,
I would not worry much about “entirely missing the point,” Bard’s or anyone else’s, because the truth you consistently enact in our discussions is intellectual and personal humility, and as far as I can tell, that pretty much IS the point. Bickering about the comparative merits of divergent conceptual schemas, whatever their pedigree, is usually unwise except in rarified cases, because it is to ignore one of the most basic truths humility imposes: every artifact of human culture, like its artificer, exists historically, which means its sustainable vitality is painfully limited and will shortly pass. The fact of death does not make human existence meaningless by any stretch, but memento mori, it’s a good idea to keep it in mind.
All good wishes,
Frank
On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 7:14 PM Waldemar Schmidt <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
Alexander (B):
You could be correct about me - I may have entirely missed you point.
It wouldn’t be the first time the obvious flew past me without making contact - unfortunately, it is probably not the last!
You are correct, again, in suggesting that I should read Hegel - but first I have to learn to read German!
Meanwhile, I’m studying Bard & Søderqvist - with whom I do not entirely agree or disagree, by the way but from whom I gain a much, much wider understanding.
My argument is more along the lines of Alexander E.
I favor neither individualism nor collectivism.
Rather, I recognize that the human condition entails, for each person, their nature as a “social individual.”
One whose social side requires an individual to interact with and being involved by other individuals and the social structure.
Developing into an individual requires a social structure and involvement - in the absence of the social structure and function the “abandoned” orphanage infants did not thrive.
The social structure and function in any setting requires the participation of separate (ie, individual) human beings within that social structure.
There is no “one” without the “other."
I think we are using different words and phrases to acknowledge essentially the same thing.
I do thank you, again, for commenting.
It’s our interpersonal interactions that allow me to expand and explore my horizons - little by little I come to apprehend the human condition.
Best personal regards,
Waldemar
Waldemar A Schmidt, PhD, MD
(Perseveret et Percipiunt)
503.631.8044
Strive not to be a success, but rather to be of value. (A Einstein)
On Oct 15, 2019, at 2:57 AM, Alexander Bard <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
Dear Waldemar
You're entirely missing my point.
The opposition of Individual versus Collective is Individualism. And it is that very OPPOSITION that is over. Your Collective is nothing but a Collective of Individuals. Like so many hardcore believers of the odl faith you simply refuse to see that the entire ideology is over.
Physics killed Atomism. The Internet has killed Individualism.
There is nothing but RELATIONAL left. And this relational is always plural so all that is left is a SOCIAL understanding of man and technology.
Neuro science practically slaughters the idea of any solid consciousness PRIOR to the event. So get over it.
Everything now is social as in man-machine social. But first and foremost we understand that we live in a relationalist world as reklationalist bodies with relationalist minds.
Read Hegel!
Best intentions
Alexander Bard
Den mån 14 okt. 2019 kl 23:29 skrev Waldemar Schmidt <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>:
Alexander B:
Thank you for your response.
I agree that things, such as the European modernist starting point to which you refer are not likely to be universal.
My point is that we Homo sapiens sapiens are “social individuals.”
That is, that one side of the “coin” is “social” and the other is “individual.”
From my perspective, each of us is both - it seems un-necessary and inaccurate to argue that we are either one or the other.
At the same time it seems correct to assert that American stress on individualism is as uninspired as a collectivist unitary stance.
Perceiving humans as “social individuals” seems pretty close to universal to me.
I understand that European Philosophy is different than American Philosophy.
But, I enjoy the intellectual interaction of the two views.
I have spent a considerable part of my formative years living in Europe and European country colonies - ie, I am a third-culture kid.
Which means I really don’t fit well into either the culture from which I arose or the culture/s in which I developed.
An holistic perception of the human condition seems more likely to foster progress.
Best regards,
Waldemar
Waldemar A Schmidt, PhD, MD
(Perseveret et Percipiunt)
503.631.8044
Strive not to be a success, but rather to be of value. (A Einstein)
On Oct 13, 2019, at 5:08 AM, Alexander Bard <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
Dear Waldemar
Acually no.
The "I" primacy is a typically European modernist starting point and not at all universal.
Still the predominant starting point among within American and European middle class discourse.
But again, not at all universal and not even historically relevant outside of the Cartesian-Kantian paradigm that still dominates Western academia but which the Internet Revolution is about to explode.
You see, the rest of the world starts with a tribal we. Usually around the Dubar number of 157. Nothing is less than 157.
So much for "higher perspectives". It rather seems it takes an awful lot of effort for western middle class people to arrive where the rest of humanity starts from.
Wilber is a Cartesian. I would much prefer if we could leave that religious conviction behind or at least not pretend it is a universally valid norm.
And what does behaviporism prove to us if not that we behave as swarms and/or flocks 99,9% of the time? No "individuals" at all in action. But swarms and flocks that at most contain dividuals.
Tthe future belongs to social psychology (like Peterson and Vervaeke) and not individual psychology at all. We are all already social and nothing but social.
Big love
Alexander
Den lör 12 okt. 2019 kl 05:46 skrev Waldemar A Schmidt, PhD, MD <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>:
Alexander (Bard):
I am reading your works very carefully.
And I value the insights they invoke within me.
Slowly, to be sure, I am trained in medicine and science, not philosophy.
But there are some truths that apply to Puerto Rican mothers of 5, as well as grandfathers of 5, such as myself:
There is an “I”.
There is a relationship of “I” with “I” within “I.”
There is an I-Thou relationship.
There is an I-It relationship.
And we all struggle to keep a balance within those.
That balance requires looking at things such as paradigms.
It won’t put food on the table.
But, it might help to do so with elan.
Nonetheless, keep poking, brother!
Best regards,
Waldemar
Waldemar A Schmidt, PhD, MD
(Perseveret et Percipiunt)
Sent from my iPad
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--
Francis J. Ambrosio, PhD
Associate Professor of Philosophy
Senior Fellow, Center for New Designs in Learning and Scholarship
Georgetown University
202-687-7441
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