Hi Jason, guaranteed jobs would be great if jobs are tailored to the
individual and are helpful to the world. I think I just don't trust the
government to implement a large program like that properly.

Best,
Helen

On Fri, Oct 11, 2019 at 5:45 AM nysa71 <
[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Hi Helen,
>
> Your concerns about providing basic needs and engaging in meaningful
> activities are (along with other concerns) precisely addressed with the Job
> Guarantee proposal. It's about setting a minimum standard for how workers
> will be treated in society, and engaging in meaningful work in their
> community that is tailored to the individual that's not about generating
> profit, (as opposed to tailoring individuals to the work needed by those
> who are trying to generate a profit)...all within the context of sound
> macroeconomics.
>
> ~ Jason Bessey
>
> On Thursday, October 10, 2019, 11:43:19 AM EDT, Helen Wu <
> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>
> Thanks Gregg for your reminder.
>
> I think everyone here hopes for a world in which everyone have the
> opportunity to live peaceful lives, have fulfilling careers, good
> relationships, etc. How we are going to get there seems to be the source of
> disagreement. I really believe in a person-centered approach in that if
> basic needs are provided most people will naturally move towards growth and
> self-actualization. Just basic needs, not spoiling. From an attachment
> perspective as well, it is hard to move forward/take risks without a secure
> base to go back to.
>
> I do believe that there is a deep human need for contribution and reward,
> but this reward does not have to be money. It could just be seeing that you
> have contributed to other people's happiness and as as result receive
> recognition and status. That's why I am not as afraid of a UBI destroying
> people's motivations as some people here. Time is a very valuable resource
> and as a society I think we overemphasize money-generating work. If I can
> just work 20-30 hours a week and make a middle class salary, I would. And I
> would spend my free time doing other things that I find meaningful.
>
> I also want to make the point that even if poverty rates are decreasing, I
> don't think people are having easier lives. The lives of people just above
> the poverty line are really really hard. Our life expectancy is actually
> decreasing in this nation. Think about that.
>
> Best,
> Helen
>
> On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 10:24 AM Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <
> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Hi Folks,
>
>
>
>   Just want to send out a reminder that this list is fine with sharp
> disagreements, but also to keep in mind that, perhaps because the list is
> populated by therapists, it has less of a “swashbuckling” culture than some
> other lists. I think a basic principle that we should all endorse is that
> the “real world” is far more complicated than either our particular
> perspectives or theories can account for. As such, I don’t know that
> sweeping generalizations are helpful. Rather, attempting at understanding,
> even while agreeing is probably preferred. Consider, that the idea that
> there are massive inequalities and that they might be both indicative of a
> problem and that it is a problem of human fairness is not fundamentally
> inconsistent with the idea that taking people’s money via governmental
> force is not a good solution.
>
>
>
>  At the general level, I would encourage folks to operate from the frame
> that what they are sharing is that it is their “version of reality” and
> that we operate off of “justification systems”. For a paper on the linkage
> of the concept of justification systems and versions of reality, see this
> paper by my colleague Craig Shealy, especially, the first half
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.gregghenriques.com_uploads_2_4_3_6_24368778_justifying-5Fthe-5Fjustification-5Fhypothesis.pdf&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=gvgczc8qVRdRblZrCs_0DRm5dCsCZq0aHTxLOHJiW-c&s=E66bEm-UcJ34hgBOC1QpYOi9nZvMXwPfjjE7nUWB_e4&e=>.
> He is known in our C-I program for what I think is a helpful, *humbling
> adage to live by…We are all full of sh*t, just to different degrees and
> different degrees of awareness
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.psychologytoday.com_us_blog_theory-2Dknowledge_201602_humbling-2Dhelpful-2Dadage-2Dlive&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=gvgczc8qVRdRblZrCs_0DRm5dCsCZq0aHTxLOHJiW-c&s=w5aWyLpCUvYPKBFIYWBSj5nUDLHovKih975po2bSuCk&e=>.*
>
>
>
> Thanks to everyone for their contributions.
>
>
> Best,
> Gregg
>
>
>
> *From:* tree of knowledge system discussion <
> [log in to unmask]> *On Behalf Of *Zachary Stein
> *Sent:* Thursday, October 10, 2019 10:58 AM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Subject:* Re: podcast with Andrew Yang
>
>
>
> Hi Alexander Elung,
>
>
>
> Perhaps I have mistaken you for someone else on the IDW list. Sorry.
>
>
>
> My sense is if we slowed down we would agree on a few things:
>
>
>
> 1). There are very significant skill and capability differences between
> people.
>
>
>
> 2). These are differentially rewarded by the market, such that a certain
> amount of economic inequality is necessary.
>
>
>
> So far so good.
>
>
>
> My sense is we think differently about:
>
>
>
> 3). The dynamics of how the market rewards various skills, especially the
> extent to which there is a strong correlation between the amount of money
> someone has and their skill levels. ….. I don’t think it is all that strong
> of a correlation.
>
>
>
> 4). The amount of inequality that is necessary for the social system to
> reflect skill differences clearly/functionally, as opposed to amounts and
> forms of inequality that are result in a misrepresentation of skill
> differences. …. I think we are in the latter situation.
>
>
>
> But it is possible to read 3 and 4 in terms of a “pure/perfect
> meritocracy” —as I think you do — which says that people get what they
> deserve based on their skills and efforts. I wish this was true, and hold
> it as an ideal. But I do not believe that such a society has ever existed
> historically. Although, I think we have lived in social systems that
> perpetrated the idea of a pure meritocracy as if it was true....
>
>
>
> My notion of *extreme* or “bad” inequality has to do with my take on 3 and
> 4. I think that the market does not reward skill differences in coherent
> ways, to the extent that the social system as a whole is beginning to
> suffer under the strain of over-valuing the wrong things/people.
>
>
>
> Envy is not really the issue (although when it comes to the mob/pitch
> forks, that is an issue). My concern is with the economy as a kind of
> sensor network or distributed intelligence, the coherence of which is an
> aspect of social reproduction; and I am saying that we are in an
> increasingly confused and incoherent economic situation, *extreme*
> inequality being one of many bad signs.
>
>
>
> zak
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Oct 10, 2019, at 10:27 AM, Alexander Elung <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> I have never used name-calling over arguments in disagreements.  However,
> you seem to do so right out of the gate.  Calling something “introductory
> level political science level stuff” is not an argument at all and you are
> also dead wrong.
>
> I completely agree with Bards point  "Don't fiddle with the deep deep
> human connection between contribution and reward “  but inheritance does
> not fiddle with that.  Creating an inheritance for your children is a giant
> motivation for many people, when trying to earn money.   You claiming that
> is makes inequality “ extreme” is not an argument.   The people who has
> inherited money are also not at all the problem.  The problem Bard was
> pointing out was that giving a universal income to people might discourage
> them to work and thus deflate the economy, .  People who inherit money,
> often still works and even if they didn’t they wouldn’t drain the system
> for resources.  You have completely, since the money has to come from
> something.  You have misunderstood the “contribution/ rewards” connection
> I’m afraid – all I’m hearing is that you are envious that some people
> inherit money, without any argument as to why that should be a problem,
> other than you just subjectively think it’s bad for some people to have
> more than others.  That’s not an argument. That’s childish envy.
>
>
> I on the other hand, just gave you a lengthy argument, that poverty
> actually had been decreasing for three decades and inequality therefor was
> meaningless in that context.  You can’t just add “ extreme” to that, and
> expect it to cover the glaring lack of coherence in your non-argument.
>
> And yes Zac , there are actually skill differences which make people able
> to make over million times the amounts of money as other people. It’s about
> how much value you provide and how much the market deems that to be worth.
> If you are able to invent something like paypal – that is indeed worth a
> million times or more than an average worker. If you are able to write
> harry potter, that might make you a billionaire, because people value your
> work that much more than the next fantasy writer.   If you don’t understand
> that, you don’t understand the basics of economy.
>
> So no, Zak, social inequality is not fundamentally different – you just
> don’t understand how the market works.
>
>
>
> Best
>
> Elung
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *Fra:* tree of knowledge system discussion <[log in to unmask]>
> på vegne af Zachary Stein <[log in to unmask]>
> *Sendt:* Thursday, October 10, 2019 3:31:33 PM
> *Til:* [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
> *Emne:* Re: podcast with Andrew Yang
>
>
>
> Hi Alexander Elung,
>
>
>
> Fancy meeting you here.
>
>
>
> Given how I have seen you and Bard interact on other lists, I’ll keep
> expectations for reasoned discourse low (and instead anticipate some name
> calling and hand waving as a way of side stepping clear argumentation) ;-)
> [It seems to me you guys just love freaking out the liberals and leftists
> and the" church-lady environmentalists and social justice warriors,” as you
> have called them. I am sometimes all for this, but it leads you to make
> some not so great arguments sometimes.]
>
>
>
> Obviously inequality is not “bad" in principle. Inequality, by some
> definition, is a kind of ontological given in the structure of things,
> including human societies.
>
>
>
> But I should not have to point out how flawed your basic argument is; this
> is like introduction to political science level stuff.
>
>
>
> Individual differences in e.g., the ability to run fast are naturally
> occurring, physiologically based differentials in human capability.
>
>
>
> Socially mediated economic and political inequalities are fundamentally
> different.
>
>
>
> Socially mediated forms of inequality are not a proxy for naturally
> occurring skill differentials. [This is the myth of *pure meritocracy.*]
>
>
>
> I am a developmental psychologist, so I understand this dynamic of
> individual capability differences quite well, and have written about it at
> length. Indeed, these naturally occurring differences in ability are one of
> the reasons we need to ease up on how extreme we make the socially created
> asymmetries of choice-making power.
>
>
>
> I.e., are there *any* skill differentials as great as the economic
> differentials we see in our society, e.g., can someone be a million times
> faster than me in a foot race? Can they even be a hundred times faster? See
> where this goes?
>
>
>
> If we want to represent naturally occurring skill differentials in
> socially mediated economic terms that is a great idea, let's do that. But
> this strategy would begin with *drastically* chopping the (ridiculous,
> unconscionable) salaries of CEOs and financial service worker, and
> drastically raising the (shamefully low) salaries of people like teachers
> and nurses, etc....
>
>
>
> The other Alexander hit the nail on the head, then I hit it again, but you
> went and missed it:
>
>
>
> "Don't fiddle with the deep deep human connection between contribution and
> reward is my suggestion.”
>
>
>
> Extreme inequality (not *all* inequality) disrupts the connection between
> contribution and reward. Total absence of inequality—i.e., pure
> equity—also disrupts this, which is your moment of truth. (Yes, we know: If
> everyone gets a gold star, this makes gold stars are worthless.)
>
>
>
> But radical economic inequality (especially when
> based largely on inheritance), is in effect, a situation where the most
> empowered classes are signaling that there is no connection between
> contribution and reward.
>
>
>
> As I said, this is a ticking social time bomb. Whether it is “wrong” in
> some ethical sense is another matter. Just look at the work of Peter
> Turchin, and you’ll see an undeniable correlation between major
> socio-economic inequality and major social strife, war, and
> revolution—especially during the recent history of the
> modern capitalist world system.
>
>
>
> zak
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Oct 10, 2019, at 8:06 AM, Alexander Elung <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> I really think people need to get around the idea that inequality is the
> problem.  There is nothing inherently wrong with inequality. If we looked
> at human “Running speed” we would also find a very high degree of
> inequality, where a very little group of athletes run faster than everyone
> else. That doesn’t mean there is a system of oppression keeping the average
> person from running fast.   What it means is, that people are different and
> some people will do better than others. All systems has inequality, it’s
> part of how systems functions.   The graph about inheritance shows nothing
> relevant to whether or not the degree of inequality is a problem or not.
>
> The problem is poverty, not inequality and poverty has reduced drastically
> in the last three decades. The poorest people in the west have access to
> smartphones, they for the most part aren’t starving and have access to
> health care.  When you start measuring the things that actually matter, we
> actually live in a time where real poverty is almost completely eliminated
> in the west.
>
> So can we stop with the “ inequality has never been higher” narrative ?
> It’s meaningless.
>
> -
>
> I agree with Bard regarding cancelling welfare systems and replacing it
> with negative income tax. Governments are not good at spending money
> efficiently, so the less money the government can spend on anti-poverty
> programs, the better for the poor. Give them the money in hand.
>
>
>
>
> Best
>
> Elung
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *Fra: *Alexander Bard <[log in to unmask]>
> *Sendt: *9. oktober 2019 17:33
> *Emne: *Re: podcast with Andrew Yang
>
>
>
> Dear Zak
>
>
>
> I have no problem whatsoever with a negative income tax för the poor
> (meaning they get money, not pay taxes).
>
> I actually think it is a lot lot better than current welfare systems.
> Because the poor as much as anybody know best how to spend their own money.
>
> Then kill the rest of the welfare systems. Excellent.
>
> As for Piketty, he promotes massively taxing the rich. That's not UBI. But
> then there is the issue of feasibility. I fins his ideas interesting but
> niave in lack of realism and dynamism. But a great and much needed voice.
>
> What pisses me off the most is the tech giants and their babble about UBI:
> While they are the biggest tax avoiders ever in history.
>
> Have we ever seen anything more hypocritical than Silicon Valley?
> Currently full of "climatists" who refuse to give up even on their branded
> mineral water bottles.
>
> The techlash has hopefully only just begun.
>
>
>
> Big love
>
> Alexander Bard
>
>
>
> Den ons 9 okt. 2019 kl 15:24 skrev Zachary Stein <[log in to unmask]>:
>
> Totally Helen. Thanks for this. I hear you, and to be clear, I am a
> supporter of a properly implemented set of radical socio-economic policy
> changes, including a UBI.
>
> The problem on this thread is that there are a few things unfolding. One
> concerns the presidential election and what is being said, by who, and what
> could actually be done by any elected official, etc. The other issues
> concern foundational problems in political and economic theory.
>
> I have very little to say that is not utterly radical about the 2020
> election situation...
>
> So I am sticking to the topics in political economy.
>
> Alexander hits the nail on the head:
>
> "Don't fiddle with the deep deep human connection between contribution and
> reward is my suggestion.”
>
> But, my dear Alexander, our fiddling with this connection is already the
> heart of the problem. We have already deeply fucked it up... This was my
> point about the *the massive and ever increasing economic inequality.*(!)
>
> Consider this data from Piketty:
>
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__piketty.pse.ens.fr_files_capital21c_en_pdf_F11.11.pdf&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=GnlnhKhfaXgzXHtv49mZRgbwzURspoigX2ZFwCDpoh4&s=aP0bq0H5DEi5te-21S342-ceKeAdEMTx75cCTWwWwoc&e=
> <https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Furldefense.proofpoint.com-252Fv2-252Furl-253Fu-253Dhttp-2D3A-5F-5Fpiketty.pse.ens.fr-5Ffiles-5Fcapital21c-5Fen-5Fpdf-5FF11.11.pdf-2526d-253DDwIFaQ-2526c-253DeLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn-5F5nBEmmeq0-2526r-253DHPo1IXYDhKClogP-2DUOpybo6Cfxxz-2DjIYBgjO2gOz4-2DA-2526m-253DGnlnhKhfaXgzXHtv49mZRgbwzURspoigX2ZFwCDpoh4-2526s-253DaP0bq0H5DEi5te-2D21S342-2DceKeAdEMTx75cCTWwWwoc-2526e-253D-26data-3D02-257C01-257C-257C8e5574a3bec541883fa208d74ccdfcd3-257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa-257C1-257C0-257C637062319897030978-26sdata-3DhPGaeIidJwlrAk4teZlwWB5rRQlTh4iPdkqjhynXtTQ-253D-26reserved-3D0%26d%3DDwMF-g%26c%3DeLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0%26r%3DHPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A%26m%3DSoi1vv5PlSKY4UvGgbeXe9Tg304k_-IruzOPeREvoWY%26s%3DaRswGTRZFzmVp4jPXCLfn23agS9dAuKqmSD84YQMus4%26e%3D&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb654280f1f4643b0eab408d74d866134%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637063111857653564&sdata=yjIBATv%2FDNQYBWogTJ%2F54J%2F8OTtw776IsIgMtvS5xJk%3D&reserved=0>
>
>  "Within the cohorts born around 1970-1980, 12-14% of individuals receive
> in inheritance the equivalent of the lifetime labor income received by the
> bottom 50% less well paid workers.”   [Let that one sink in.]
>
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__piketty.pse.ens.fr_files_capital21c_en_pdf_F8.8.pdf&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=GnlnhKhfaXgzXHtv49mZRgbwzURspoigX2ZFwCDpoh4&s=tlL1o8rQ1HMEolMt9enzpYEYuuZ38fNp0x_zj2l0MGU&e=
> <https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Furldefense.proofpoint.com-252Fv2-252Furl-253Fu-253Dhttp-2D3A-5F-5Fpiketty.pse.ens.fr-5Ffiles-5Fcapital21c-5Fen-5Fpdf-5FF8.8.pdf-2526d-253DDwIFaQ-2526c-253DeLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn-5F5nBEmmeq0-2526r-253DHPo1IXYDhKClogP-2DUOpybo6Cfxxz-2DjIYBgjO2gOz4-2DA-2526m-253DGnlnhKhfaXgzXHtv49mZRgbwzURspoigX2ZFwCDpoh4-2526s-253DtlL1o8rQ1HMEolMt9enzpYEYuuZ38fNp0x-5Fzj2l0MGU-2526e-253D-26data-3D02-257C01-257C-257C8e5574a3bec541883fa208d74ccdfcd3-257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa-257C1-257C0-257C637062319897030978-26sdata-3DLsvCNmgYNWMGibvCaH6z7qxeGgMhkG1Tu-252FG-252Bw3q4iFM-253D-26reserved-3D0%26d%3DDwMF-g%26c%3DeLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0%26r%3DHPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A%26m%3DSoi1vv5PlSKY4UvGgbeXe9Tg304k_-IruzOPeREvoWY%26s%3DRINbrrPUocBfy4x8Mlyla2L0TIWKuPZM7V9mgTKFnt8%26e%3D&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb654280f1f4643b0eab408d74d866134%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637063111857663576&sdata=gjvcqcA7THScyqY8srrqu7B6KVkUg%2BWdo5XWu%2ByN5W8%3D&reserved=0>
>
> "The rise in the top 1% highest incomes since the 1970s is largely due to
> the rise in the top 1% highest wages” [Note that we have nearly surpassed
> the Gilded Age in inequality and its speeding up.]
>
> This way of arranging the connection between contribution and reward
> (i.e., having the most empowered classes signal that there is no
> connection) is a ticking social time bomb.
>
> I would say that this kind of inequality is way worse in its net effects
> than a UBI.
>
> However, what if a UBI is rolled out and the rest of the situation
> described in the figures above does not change? Then it is like the
> aristocrats using cash to pay off a mob wielding pitch forks, knowing full
> well there is no plan to change the overall arrangement, and that in a few
> years they will have better defenses.
>
> A far as I can tell no President is capable of or interested in changing
> this overall arrangement (sorry Bennie, you’ll need to sell that house in
> Grand Isle VT). But now we are back to my radical ideas about 2020…
>
> Crisp morning in the Green Mountains.
>
> zak
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 9, 2019, at 8:34 AM, Helen Wu <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > This discussion makes me frustrated. $1000 a month is not enough to
> cancel work. We are not talking about a $50,000 per year UBI here. It is
> just enough so you are not going to end up on a downward spiral if there
> are sudden financial difficulties. Saudi Arabia has a lot more problems
> than UBI. Not sure if that's the best example. Half of my family is working
> class and I know so many people who need some money now. They are not lazy
> and they are not going to lose their souls/spirit. They don't have the time
> for education. They just need some help so that they can have some
> breathing space to move on towards their goal.
> >
> > Best,
> > Helen
> >
> > On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 5:54 AM Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <
> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > Zak,
> >
> >   What I think we should be investing in is an education of the human
> soul toward the spirit…now that is a collective universal I could get
> behind!
> >
> >
> >
> > Of course, as a psychotherapist, most of my work is soul work, so I will
> leave the truly spiritual stuff to the real gurus.
> >
> >
> > Best,
> > Gregg
> >
> >
> >
> > From: tree of knowledge system discussion <
> [log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Alexander Bard
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 9, 2019 3:26 AM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: podcast with Andrew Yang
> >
> >
> >
> > I agree 100% with dear Zachary.
> >
> > There actually already exists one massive UBI experiment in the world
> and you may study it to see how it all went.
> >
> > It is called Saudi Arabia.
> >
> > Shopping centers full of 29-year-old obese diabetics while foreigners do
> all the meaningful paid work in the country.
> >
> > Is that the sort of society you would want to create?
> >
> > Don't fiddle with the deep deep human connection between contribution
> and reward is my suggestion. And forget that there won't be any jobs in the
> future. There will tons of them. The question what kind of experiemtial
> quality they will provide though. But that's an entirely different matter
> and not a case for UBI (which still has to be paid, massively paid, by
> somebody as well).
> >
> > Best intentions
> >
> > Alexander
> >
> >
> >
> > Den tis 8 okt. 2019 kl 21:49 skrev Zachary Stein <[log in to unmask]>:
> >
> > Hi ToK list,
> >
> >
> >
> > Having published about UBI as a non expert (I am a philosopher of
> education [UBI is one of my “social miracles”]), I will say that it is
> dangerous when taken up in isolation from other social programs and
> especially educational initiatives.
> >
> >
> >
> > Indeed, there are scenarios where the UBI is a true nightmare, and I am
> not talking about inflation and other economic fallout — I am talking about
> meaninglessness, de-skilled apathy, addiction, suicide, i.e.,
> total/catastrophic mental health crisis. (The same holds for a so-called
> "guaranteed work program," if done in isolation from related social
> programs and educational initiatives).
> >
> >
> >
> > UBI is as much (more so?) an educational/cultural issue then a math
> problem in economics.
> >
> >
> >
> > Even if we can make the numbers work the real hard problem is making the
> idea work as a part of the current human identity structure  (i.e., as part
> of our self-system's role-taking and social justification dynamics).
> >
> >
> >
> > Who am I if I am not a wage laborer? That is the question. If the
> culture and individual can’t answer that but the economists and politicians
> go ahead and take away the category of wage labor, well, there will be a
> society wide equivalent of an identity crisis or nervous breakdown.
> >
> >
> >
> > Of course, the elephant in the room is *the massive and ever increasing
> economic inequality.* Remember when Piketty was a best seller? The math he
> laid out is still true. The whole compounding interest thing still holds.
> UBI may be a nonstarter but something (somebody?) has to give.
> >
> >
> >
> > Instead of justifying UBI to people taking issue, I often ask "what else
> sounds good that is as radical in its admission of the need for
> redistribution?” My answer has something to do with an education
> renaissance/revolution, but that is another story.
> >
> >
> >
> > Fall colors in Vermont.
> >
> >
> >
> > zak
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Oct 8, 2019, at 2:55 PM, nysa71 <
> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Gregg,
> >
> > Here's a link to the Job Guarantee FAQ by Pavlina Tcherneva, Associate
> Professor of Economics at Bard University and research scholar at the Levy
> Institute. She specializes in Modern Monetary Theory and public policy, and
> is one of the foremost experts on the Job Guarantee proposal. Besides the
> FAQ, there's all kinds of publications and videos on the JG, (plus other
> topics, including Pavlina's issues with the UBI).
> >
> >
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.pavlina-2Dtcherneva.net_job-2Dguarantee-2Dfaq&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=GnlnhKhfaXgzXHtv49mZRgbwzURspoigX2ZFwCDpoh4&s=s1KIakCBK5p7I-6c0En59v_9nhxsdbJLzDPkw4NeI0w&e=
> <https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Furldefense.proofpoint.com-252Fv2-252Furl-253Fu-253Dhttps-2D3A-5F-5Fwww.pavlina-2D2Dtcherneva.net-5Fjob-2D2Dguarantee-2D2Dfaq-2526d-253DDwIFaQ-2526c-253DeLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn-5F5nBEmmeq0-2526r-253DHPo1IXYDhKClogP-2DUOpybo6Cfxxz-2DjIYBgjO2gOz4-2DA-2526m-253DGnlnhKhfaXgzXHtv49mZRgbwzURspoigX2ZFwCDpoh4-2526s-253Ds1KIakCBK5p7I-2D6c0En59v-5F9nhxsdbJLzDPkw4NeI0w-2526e-253D-26data-3D02-257C01-257C-257C8e5574a3bec541883fa208d74ccdfcd3-257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa-257C1-257C0-257C637062319897040983-26sdata-3DHH9yeFd7U1BzqvYWGNL20lIMqn0geBD4yK-252Fig2tconc-253D-26reserved-3D0%26d%3DDwMF-g%26c%3DeLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0%26r%3DHPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A%26m%3DSoi1vv5PlSKY4UvGgbeXe9Tg304k_-IruzOPeREvoWY%26s%3Dp2kxJNSbi1ORlsPeU2LX-Mgba2MTJUBQLk7fIAymN8Q%26e%3D&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb654280f1f4643b0eab408d74d866134%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637063111857673585&sdata=PDu5tH9qCSTtvXWFQRKBClr3isXCvD%2FE3K1Ct7kILYs%3D&reserved=0>
> >
> > ~ Jason Bessey
> >
> >
> >
> > Job Guarantee FAQ | pavlina-tcherneva
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tuesday, October 8, 2019, 09:41:00 AM EDT, Peter Lloyd Jones <
> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bad email program…
> >
> > Should be:
> >
> > Beyond that there is no substantive threat.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Peter Lloyd Jones
> > [log in to unmask]
> > 562-209-4080
> >
> > Sent by determined causes that no amount of will is able to thwart.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Oct 8, 2019, at 9:37 AM, Peter Lloyd Jones <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Thank you Joseph for your note about tempering expectations.
> >
> >
> >
> > As a former mediocre road racer, I have a lot of experience in riding
> around on race tracks during races. Yang is using his
> presidential-candidate platform to promote certain ideas. Beyond that there
> is  substantive threat. O’Rourke has stated that he will take away our
> guns. They are both introducing progressive concepts because, without
> blood, politics moves slowly. You need to start somewhere. They know that
> they have sacraficed their candidacies to mold allowable discussions moving
> forward. Years ago if you just asked if weed might have medical uses, your
> political career was over. Today...
> >
> >
> >
> > This is about ideas, which might be good and bad ideas, but it’s not
> about who will be the next president.
> >
> >
> >
> > Vote early and often.
> >
> > Best to all,
> >
> > Peter
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Peter Lloyd Jones
> > [log in to unmask]
> > 562-209-4080
> >
> > Sent by determined causes that no amount of will is able to thwart.
> >
> >
> >
> > ############################
> >
> > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:
> [log in to unmask] or click the following
> link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1
> <https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Flistserv.jmu.edu-252Fcgi-2Dbin-252Fwa-253FSUBED1-253DTOK-2DSOCIETY-2DL-2526A-253D1-26data-3D02-257C01-257C-257C8e5574a3bec541883fa208d74ccdfcd3-257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa-257C1-257C0-257C637062319897050993-26sdata-3DA-252FmuNQHSwb7AwTMF0kx4ko8FUygy3h7TWzJg4QrZrn8-253D-26reserved-3D0%26d%3DDwMF-g%26c%3DeLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0%26r%3DHPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A%26m%3DSoi1vv5PlSKY4UvGgbeXe9Tg304k_-IruzOPeREvoWY%26s%3D_gcjHx3cea9mfp9d4MqTe4ynd9C2cbnWEgUrFfLQiJM%26e%3D&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb654280f1f4643b0eab408d74d866134%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637063111857683589&sdata=GnDkIgvl4tDuZJVc92OQRAAPK4CmoqK2K7YqTiL8Otg%3D&reserved=0>
> >
> > ############################
> >
> > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:
> [log in to unmask] or click the following
> link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1
> <https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Flistserv.jmu.edu-252Fcgi-2Dbin-252Fwa-253FSUBED1-253DTOK-2DSOCIETY-2DL-2526A-253D1-26data-3D02-257C01-257C-257C8e5574a3bec541883fa208d74ccdfcd3-257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa-257C1-257C0-257C637062319897050993-26sdata-3DA-252FmuNQHSwb7AwTMF0kx4ko8FUygy3h7TWzJg4QrZrn8-253D-26reserved-3D0%26d%3DDwMF-g%26c%3DeLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0%26r%3DHPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A%26m%3DSoi1vv5PlSKY4UvGgbeXe9Tg304k_-IruzOPeREvoWY%26s%3D_gcjHx3cea9mfp9d4MqTe4ynd9C2cbnWEgUrFfLQiJM%26e%3D&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb654280f1f4643b0eab408d74d866134%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637063111857683589&sdata=GnDkIgvl4tDuZJVc92OQRAAPK4CmoqK2K7YqTiL8Otg%3D&reserved=0>
> >
> >
> >
> > ############################
> >
> > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:
> [log in to unmask] or click the following
> link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1
> <https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Flistserv.jmu.edu-252Fcgi-2Dbin-252Fwa-253FSUBED1-253DTOK-2DSOCIETY-2DL-2526A-253D1-26data-3D02-257C01-257C-257C8e5574a3bec541883fa208d74ccdfcd3-257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa-257C1-257C0-257C637062319897050993-26sdata-3DA-252FmuNQHSwb7AwTMF0kx4ko8FUygy3h7TWzJg4QrZrn8-253D-26reserved-3D0%26d%3DDwMF-g%26c%3DeLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0%26r%3DHPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A%26m%3DSoi1vv5PlSKY4UvGgbeXe9Tg304k_-IruzOPeREvoWY%26s%3D_gcjHx3cea9mfp9d4MqTe4ynd9C2cbnWEgUrFfLQiJM%26e%3D&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb654280f1f4643b0eab408d74d866134%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637063111857693602&sdata=FvNF40wRK7PmNx%2FkUOIJZDwZk99J0GN2y0mBYwwSk7Y%3D&reserved=0>
> >
> > ############################
> >
> > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:
> [log in to unmask] or click the following
> link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1
> <https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Flistserv.jmu.edu-252Fcgi-2Dbin-252Fwa-253FSUBED1-253DTOK-2DSOCIETY-2DL-2526A-253D1-26data-3D02-257C01-257C-257C8e5574a3bec541883fa208d74ccdfcd3-257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa-257C1-257C0-257C637062319897060999-26sdata-3DQX-252Fd4iEvXYy4vIxAeoP7tzjsJ8w4bc36eXdi0g-252FSBDU-253D-26reserved-3D0%26d%3DDwMF-g%26c%3DeLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0%26r%3DHPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A%26m%3DSoi1vv5PlSKY4UvGgbeXe9Tg304k_-IruzOPeREvoWY%26s%3DV_5cnHPDBXsLkGHig9fFkIF7IQiWJIzpsUis7WeZFDY%26e%3D&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb654280f1f4643b0eab408d74d866134%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637063111857703611&sdata=YwxxJCfS1sqqFurF4cl7SAzPaWAAs4K00v%2FAr87k9vQ%3D&reserved=0>
> >
> > ############################
> > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:
> [log in to unmask] or click the following
> link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1
> <https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Flistserv.jmu.edu-252Fcgi-2Dbin-252Fwa-253FSUBED1-253DTOK-2DSOCIETY-2DL-2526A-253D1-26data-3D02-257C01-257C-257C8e5574a3bec541883fa208d74ccdfcd3-257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa-257C1-257C0-257C637062319897060999-26sdata-3DQX-252Fd4iEvXYy4vIxAeoP7tzjsJ8w4bc36eXdi0g-252FSBDU-253D-26reserved-3D0%26d%3DDwMF-g%26c%3DeLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0%26r%3DHPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A%26m%3DSoi1vv5PlSKY4UvGgbeXe9Tg304k_-IruzOPeREvoWY%26s%3DV_5cnHPDBXsLkGHig9fFkIF7IQiWJIzpsUis7WeZFDY%26e%3D&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb654280f1f4643b0eab408d74d866134%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637063111857713624&sdata=SYSpS6eTQRZYh3adQC1ZBXskz3CfScmyLMLdYcNSzKQ%3D&reserved=0>
> >
> > ############################
> > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:
> [log in to unmask] or click the following
> link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1
> <https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Flistserv.jmu.edu-252Fcgi-2Dbin-252Fwa-253FSUBED1-253DTOK-2DSOCIETY-2DL-2526A-253D1-26data-3D02-257C01-257C-257C8e5574a3bec541883fa208d74ccdfcd3-257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa-257C1-257C0-257C637062319897071009-26sdata-3DJ7rYnXGGB7Pkfd3ERn3twMPQQv0FGGs7YeMsqjl8RIw-253D-26reserved-3D0%26d%3DDwMF-g%26c%3DeLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0%26r%3DHPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A%26m%3DSoi1vv5PlSKY4UvGgbeXe9Tg304k_-IruzOPeREvoWY%26s%3D-o52OQFStw2NPYgV1ExeVZ1ZLpEJBznAtVNA867kVsc%26e%3D&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb654280f1f4643b0eab408d74d866134%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637063111857713624&sdata=DALBAGXfA%2B%2FObNK0GnQgs4pV05K6USGuIajUE3LTUP4%3D&reserved=0>
> >
>
> ############################
>
> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list:
> write to: mailto:[log in to unmask]
> or click the following link:
> http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1
> <https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Flistserv.jmu.edu-252Fcgi-2Dbin-252Fwa-253FSUBED1-253DTOK-2DSOCIETY-2DL-2526A-253D1-26data-3D02-257C01-257C-257C8e5574a3bec541883fa208d74ccdfcd3-257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa-257C1-257C0-257C637062319897071009-26sdata-3DJ7rYnXGGB7Pkfd3ERn3twMPQQv0FGGs7YeMsqjl8RIw-253D-26reserved-3D0%26d%3DDwMF-g%26c%3DeLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0%26r%3DHPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A%26m%3DSoi1vv5PlSKY4UvGgbeXe9Tg304k_-IruzOPeREvoWY%26s%3D-o52OQFStw2NPYgV1ExeVZ1ZLpEJBznAtVNA867kVsc%26e%3D&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb654280f1f4643b0eab408d74d866134%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637063111857723628&sdata=fLRo1JF9aPErOFcJe1Xr109bTW9ZVG77T%2FVBRlrChAE%3D&reserved=0>
>
> ############################
>
> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to:
> mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the
> following link:
> http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1
> <https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Flistserv.jmu.edu-252Fcgi-2Dbin-252Fwa-253FSUBED1-253DTOK-2DSOCIETY-2DL-2526A-253D1-26data-3D02-257C01-257C-257C8e5574a3bec541883fa208d74ccdfcd3-257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa-257C1-257C0-257C637062319897081014-26sdata-3DLcjyb9Cwoxh5Xu9VbtpsCm4HwOFo3cmrblAEtqceRGw-253D-26reserved-3D0%26d%3DDwMF-g%26c%3DeLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0%26r%3DHPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A%26m%3DSoi1vv5PlSKY4UvGgbeXe9Tg304k_-IruzOPeREvoWY%26s%3D6w8DdWfVEKEAMwcZl4gK2U8T9BHCt2BvIcfczuq6Hbk%26e%3D&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb654280f1f4643b0eab408d74d866134%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637063111857733641&sdata=cNT%2B8zYUGKifRpM3rQxtXcm1HiRm6jnsgJ2jmQfxk5E%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
> ############################
>
> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to:
> mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the
> following link:
> http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Flistserv.jmu.edu-252Fcgi-2Dbin-252Fwa-253FSUBED1-253DTOK-2DSOCIETY-2DL-2526A-253D1-26data-3D02-257C01-257C-257Cb654280f1f4643b0eab408d74d866134-257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa-257C1-257C0-257C637063111857743645-26sdata-3Dv0HXTX8NHmR4w3fEkWnbQtIRqTp8nIeDOIi6ufmzXjg-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwMF-g&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=o84KKtKHz719_S3TzEHuqek6xC0kvS1snlXKr9uP8Oc&s=hQbwir041aISb4-CcruyEtIUlh-g9YBPzljrauy7HpQ&e=>
>
>
>
> ############################
>
> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to:
> mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the
> following link:http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Flistserv.jmu.edu-252Fcgi-2Dbin-252Fwa-253FSUBED1-253DTOK-2DSOCIETY-2DL-2526A-253D1-26data-3D02-257C01-257C-257Cb654280f1f4643b0eab408d74d866134-257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa-257C1-257C0-257C637063111857743645-26sdata-3Dv0HXTX8NHmR4w3fEkWnbQtIRqTp8nIeDOIi6ufmzXjg-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwMF-g&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=o84KKtKHz719_S3TzEHuqek6xC0kvS1snlXKr9uP8Oc&s=hQbwir041aISb4-CcruyEtIUlh-g9YBPzljrauy7HpQ&e=>
>
> ############################
>
> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to:
> mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the
> following link:
> http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1
>
>
>
> ############################
>
> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to:
> mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the
> following link:
> http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1
> ############################
>
> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to:
> mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the
> following link:
> http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1
>
> ############################
>
> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to:
> mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the
> following link:
> http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1
> ############################
>
> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to:
> mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the
> following link:
> http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1
>

############################

To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list:
write to: mailto:[log in to unmask]
or click the following link:
http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1