Hi all,
I'll throw in my two cents as well, to make sure the women are being well
represented. First, I agree with Helen that I don't believe putting a
label on it is even remotely helpful, due to it immediately activating
either shame or complex justifications of why a man is not indeed sexist
(newsflash- you are).
I think we all (regardless of gender) have hidden prejudices towards both
men and women that then are enacted in both subtle and obvious ways- for
proof, we have to look no further than at the multitude of implicit
association tasks. Therefore, to place this label of "sexist" firmly in
the hands or responsibility of the male gender is to ignore that women also
perpetuate the same type of sexism, if in other ways. Certainly there are
degrees to levels of sexism, and there are many things that will contribute
to this, but I think, ultimately, that arguing that all men are sexist is
missing the larger point. All people who exist within a particular culture
absorb, to some degree, the various associations between the genders and
how they are expected to be different, affecting the roles and expectations
we place on them. Are all men sexist? Abso-friggin-lutely. Are all women
also sexist? Yep.
I also wanted to speak to your question, Gregg, about why I personally am
less likely to contribute directly to a discussion on this list-serve, and
I really can only speak to myself here, though I wonder very much how
similar this feeling would be across the different women on this
list-serve. I think there are a multitude of different reasons for this,
but ultimately a lot of it does relate to the male and female dynamics that
run across all facets of social communication. Yes, of course there is the
fear of being mansplained to, if I misquote or use information that someone
doesn't entirely agree with. I'm also possibly a little more aware of the
fact that when I get on to contribute to something like this, I'm not just
representing me, but in another way, representing my gender as a whole in a
setting in which the discussion is mostly male driven. It makes me less
confident in my own assertions because I feel the need to be fair to my sex
as well as to myself. I ask myself, Jenna- can you speak to this in a way
that uses the right words, the right terminology, and is not likely to
irritate or bother others but is instead inclusive? If the answer to any
of those questions is no, I'm less likely to speak. Do I fear irritating
smart men who are overly-confident in their opinions more than I do
challenging my fellow women who have the same tendencies? Why yes, I do.
Another piece of this is the sub-level of analysis that goes into every
word I type. Anyone who knows me knows that I am a confident, outspoken
women with many opinions I'm not afraid to voice (the word intimidating has
been used in many different settings to refer to me). But in a forum like
this, amongst my peers, many of whom appear (at least on the surface) much
more worldly than myself, the fear is real that I will trample on someone.
The woman, the peacemaker, in me that wants people of our level to agree
and get along and hold hands and sing kumbaya, fights with the inborn
rebel, and I read over everything time and time again. Internal dialogue-
who will I piss off by saying this? Who will misinterpret me? Will the
see me as valid? Or will I come across as ignorant and naive (and
therefore, in some underlying way, less than)? These issues exist, and I
believe they certainly relate to the gender dynamics that we would see
across different settings. But again, blaming one sex on the list-serve
for that is absolutely unfair. It's as much my responsibility to overcome
these issues as it is my male counterparts to acknowledge them and be more
informed on how these dynamics play out.
~Jenna
On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 10:31 PM, Helen Wu <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Hi hi, another woman speaking up.
>
> I think it's very important to make a distinction between acknowledging
> the biases and prejudices we all have without perhaps putting such a
> shaming and damning label on ourselves. I think once the "ist" or "ism"
> labels are put on, they induce defenses making it difficult for many to
> have an actual open and honest dialogue. I see this happen so many times in
> the so-called diversity seminars in my training that I am beginning to
> dread the next time I am required to go to one. For the record, I am an
> Asian woman. Preaching to the choir and making people too ashamed to to
> speak up isn't very helpful in my opinion. Labeling large groups of people
> even in defense of another group is simply counterproductive.
>
> I think the privileges that people have are complicated. Yes, perhaps
> heterosexual white man as a group have more privileges than most other
> groups and hence should not judge other groups for not succeeding as much
> by the typical standards. At the same time I have some privileges that
> these men don't. I always get the sense that it's easier for me to obtain
> cooperation from many people because small Asian women are simply seen as
> non-threatening. And I rarely have people talk down to me perhaps because
> Asians are also viewed as smart. And as a woman in general, it is more
> acceptable for me to express my emotions and engage in both masculine and
> feminine activities. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember reading that
> boys are struggling more in school and not getting into college as much as
> girls. Seems to me that the male gender is being neglected in some very
> important ways. Perhaps one can argue that it is an advantage that men can
> be more aggressive and domineering with fewer repercussions, but this kind
> of value system ultimately leads to less intimate or satisfying
> relationships in my opinion.
>
> Anyway, my main point is that what is more important is to create a safe
> space for open dialogue so that we can navigate the complexities of human
> relationships together.
>
> On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 5:16 PM Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <
> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> Thanks so much for sharing this viewpoint Patrice. It was helpful for me
>> to see.
>>
>> Best,
>> Gregg
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE smartphone
>>
>>
>> -------- Original message --------
>> From: Patrice Alvarado <[log in to unmask]>
>> Date: 10/25/18 5:34 PM (GMT-05:00)
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Sartre, and ?Are all men sexist?
>>
>> It feels a bit vulnerable to express this but in the spirit of answering
>> an invitation to speak on this subject I can write these thoughts: I read
>> the article a couple of days ago and was moved, and filled with an
>> incredible sense of hopefulness that it was possible for someone … a man in
>> this case … to understand … the lived experience of the Other.. The article
>> struck me in a different way than most newspaper articles that I like do,
>> in that it seemed to speak more directly to my heart and personal self, and
>> this came from more than the words by themselves (ex. words such as sexist,
>> patriarchy, etc.) but from the author's sense of humility and use of
>> examples that demonstrated a real understanding, again of the perspective
>> and lived experience of being female. Yet I know that if he had just said
>> “men do sexist things” while not acknowledging the pervasiveness of the
>> whole mindset that we all live under, it would not have felt as powerful to
>> me. I was also struck with how vulnerable the author was being with his
>> words and found myself wondering about how other men might view him …
>> Before that I actually had the thought that this was probably written by a
>> woman who at the end would say, “these are words we wish to hear”. Once I
>> realized though that he was indeed a man who had not had the lived
>> experience of being female, I felt a deep appreciation and even awe at his
>> courage for writing such a piece and thought he must be someone who truly
>> is in tune with himself to be able to take such a risk.
>>
>> One additional note: I had not shared the article with friends, as I
>> often do, but when Gregg’s post came through about him speaking at Mary
>> Washington I shared with my daughter, who just graduated from Mary
>> Washington and who works there, about the Sartre event and she wrote back
>> that that was awesome about the event and then added “and that article
>> looks amazing”. I am guessing that the article struck her in a similar way
>> that it struck me. Thank you Jason, Gregg, and others for this discussion
>> and the invitation to write a response. Patrice
>> *Patrice A. Alvarado, Ph.D.*
>> *Licensed Clinical Psychologist*
>> *9246-B Mosby St.
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__maps.google.com_-3Fq-3D9246-2DB-2BMosby-2BSt.-2B-250D-250A-2BManassas-2C-2BVA-2B20110-26entry-3Dgmail-26source-3Dg&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=9vHd50zqOaiiWPolXwzWnPCRc6XIytx1GQCOg1o1u4Q&s=OtEqKF3p8cIJbHFoCuIZWebiG_myd98vNaaGCaVHpZg&e=>*
>> *Manassas, VA 20110
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__maps.google.com_-3Fq-3D9246-2DB-2BMosby-2BSt.-2B-250D-250A-2BManassas-2C-2BVA-2B20110-26entry-3Dgmail-26source-3Dg&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=9vHd50zqOaiiWPolXwzWnPCRc6XIytx1GQCOg1o1u4Q&s=OtEqKF3p8cIJbHFoCuIZWebiG_myd98vNaaGCaVHpZg&e=>*
>> *571-248-2145*
>> *www.mindful-psychotherapy.net
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.mindful-2Dpsychotherapy.net&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=sPasuYr9jfRot6sZ15l1-DIW1_bSo-V0HS5EUq32w0E&s=SpTzimfCkD2vkN6DJw184OJ22877hOubUIdzrJGZqek&e=>*
>>
>> On Oct 25, 2018, at 4:36 PM, nysa71 <000000c289d6ba14-dmarc-
>> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I would like to read the thoughts of women on this listserve on that NYT
>> article. I hope they feel they can without the fear of being mansplained
>> to. [image: Emoji]
>>
>> ~ Jason
>> On Thursday, October 25, 2018, 12:32:25 PM EDT, Henriques, Gregg -
>> henriqgx <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi List,
>>
>> Steve Quackenbush and I are headed to a conference on Sartre this
>> weekend at Mary Washington University. George Yancy will be giving the
>> keynote. He has written quite a bit on racism in the US. He just wrote an
>> op ed piece explaining why he thinks all men, including himself, are sexist:
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.nytimes.com_2018_10_24_opinion_men-2Dsexism-2Dme-2Dtoo.html&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=9vHd50zqOaiiWPolXwzWnPCRc6XIytx1GQCOg1o1u4Q&s=fSR6WZz65lWJhrMxKReLwGqYJzJSU3QET2vXXfb3PKk&e=
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.nytimes.com_2018_10_24_opinion_men-2Dsexism-2Dme-2Dtoo.html&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=vrsosTFwweVLZozwqh3sMnDw9m61dPszYjrVYdHoIYs&s=Dj0Q5wFKSj5yyVKFTjKFbvxyxvRQZ9qa8hvxL-ETDJs&e=>.
>> I will be interested to hear him speak (which will be more focused on
>> racism than sexism, I think). Perhaps I will get a chance to chat with him.
>> Would be curious to see if others have reactions to this.
>>
>>
>> When these kinds of conversations emerge, I like to bring them close to
>> home, into the here and now. For example, in bringing this up, I can’t help
>> but reflect on noticing how male dominated this list is, at least in terms
>> of participation. We are fairly equivalent in terms of actual numbers (~35
>> of each gender). Yet, my sense is that 95% or more of the posts have been
>> made by men. This is the pattern of virtually every other list serve I have
>> been on (i.e., heavily male dominated, much more than the ratio of folks on
>> the list). Interesting food for thought.
>>
>>
>> I will be heading out and back Monday.
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Gregg
>>
>>
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--
Jenna K. Holt, PsyD
Licensed Clinical Psychologist
Associate Professor of Psychology
Mary Baldwin University
Staunton, VA 24401
540-887-7118
FAX 540-887-7121
"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."
Gandalf, The Lord of the Rings
~J.R.R. Tolkien
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