Alexander E,
What determines what is valuable?
Best,
-Chance
On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 6:26 PM Alexander Elung <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
> I don’t actually think success has anything to do with luck. Unsuccessful
> people who win the lottery very often ends up broke again within very short
> time frames. The amount of wealth you accumulate can be dependent on
> luck . You can be born rich ( luck) you can win the lottery ( luck) -
> however wealth isn’t success. Success is the act of generating value.
> Which means that you have to bring value to other people, which is rarely
> something you can accomplish by luck.
>
> Let’s take an extreme example ; Paris Hiltons success came from her being
> extremely proficient at marketing herself – she was rich before that, but
> being successful required her to make something which other people wanted
> to consume. That didn’t have anything to do with luck.
>
> You can be lucky and be born rich. You can be lucky and win the lottery –
> but to be successful, you have to be the one who is generating the value.
>
>
>
> Best
>
> Elung
>
>
>
> *Fra: *Alexander Bard <[log in to unmask]>
> *Sendt: *14. februar 2020 01:07
> *Til: *[log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
> *Emne: *Re: Interesting critique of life in US
>
>
>
> Touché, my dear Namesake, that was exactly my point.
>
> Then add the humility of chance/fate. If we are ever successful it helps
> both us and our surroundings to understand that both hard work, deep
> studies and a big dose of luck got us where we are at.
>
> Not that it makes society immune against envy and ressentiment,
> the ultimate social poisons. But it gives us a proper ethical position from
> which to fight those passive-aggressive delusions.
>
> We hav merely just begun to fight and overcome the horrors of mass
> narcissism.
>
> Big love
>
> Alexander Bard
>
>
>
> Den fre 14 feb. 2020 kl 01:00 skrev Alexander Elung <
> [log in to unmask]>:
>
> ” And success is defined as status, wealth, attractiveness, capacity and
> means to act as one pleases, etc. This is not a fulfilling conception of
> personhood. The goal, it seems to me, is to seek to change minds and
> societal structures that reflects our conceptions of what it means to be
> good persons, what it means to have good relationships, and what it means
> to cultivate a society that promotes human flourishing rather than merely
> human self-interest. This, I think, is what will make us feel whole, rather
> than empty. ”
>
> The problem with a statement such as this, is that you don’t seem to
> understand what success actually is to begin with. To succeed at
> something, you have to create value. To create value, people have to value
> what you are doing. Being a good person can make you extremely successful,
> if you are actually providing other people value. Helping other people
> can be extremely profitable if you are good at it – like inventing
> something which will make peoples lives easier.
>
> The idea that you think changing societal structures, will change the
> definition of success, leads me to believe that you don’t understand either
> how success or societal structures work.
>
> “The “feel less” in the quote, IMO, refers to the emptiness that shallow
> achievement and consumerism breeds, in contrast to a deeper grounding in
> being and an awareness of the virtues that guide our sense of personhood. I
> certainly think that was the point Mike was making.”
>
>
> The problem has nothing to do with consumerism. Achieving something is
> hard and requires work. What makes a person successful is the creation of
> something, which other people values. You can’t change minds and societal
> structures and then expect everybody to be successful and feel achievement
> – however you can instill the understanding in people, that they are
> responsible for their own feeling of meaning and that it’s something they
> have to work for.
>
> I suspect this is also what Bard meant with the John Wayne allegory.
>
> best
>
> Elung
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *Fra: *Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <[log in to unmask]>
> *Sendt: *14. februar 2020 00:49
> *Til: *[log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
> *Emne: *Re: Interesting critique of life in US
>
>
>
> Alexander,
>
> You do have a way of putting things 😊. I think your (somewhat
> justified) frustration with the modern state of America and its problem
> with infantile narcissism may cause you to read the quotation differently
> than I did. The “feel less” in the quote, IMO, refers to the emptiness that
> shallow achievement and consumerism breeds, in contrast to a deeper
> grounding in being and an awareness of the virtues that guide our sense of
> personhood. I certainly think that was the point Mike was making.
>
>
>
> Peace,
>
> G
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* tree of knowledge system discussion <
> [log in to unmask]> *On Behalf Of *Alexander Bard
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 13, 2020 6:31 PM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Subject:* Re: Interesting critique of life in US
>
>
>
> Dear Mike
>
>
>
> As aa European I'm actually tired of Americans who feel too much and rely
> on their feelings for absolutely everything. We get stuck in Californian
> hippie talk if I'm brutally honest.
>
> I like John Wayne who as an ethical figure does what is right without
> feeling a thing. Philosophers like Zizek and Badiou probably even jerk off
> at his feet.
>
> So the problem is American Inidividualism going to into a supernova phase
> as American hypernarcissism. As if John Wayne only defends himself and not
> his community.
>
> We are all sick and tired of that and we know that the proper response is
> concepts like "congregation" and "community", the nicest damn words in
> American English.
>
> But am I the only one here sensing that "emotions" communicate a brat
> stuck at his mother's tit rather than a properly adult American?
>
> Just asking.
>
>
>
> Best intentions
>
> Alexander Bard
>
>
>
> Den tors 13 feb. 2020 kl 20:12 skrev Michael Mascolo <
> [log in to unmask]>:
>
> HI All:
>
>
>
> I found this article to be quite illuminative of our current condition. I
> particularly found this quote to be very valuable:
>
> As the American physician and psychotherapist Alexander Lowen
> acknowledged: “The modern individual is committed to being successful, not
> to being a person. He belongs rightly to the ‘action generation’ whose
> motto is ‘do more but feel less.”
>
> I think that this really gets at the core of the issue — even more than
> the idea that we are acquisitive commodity seekers. The idea that
> contemporary capitalist society is organized to foster a sense of
> acquisitiveness has always struck me as appropriate, but secondary to
> something else. This is the something else that I think is more important.
>
>
> The most powerful of all human motives, I think, are identity motives.
> We are motivated to uphold images of who we want to be and, morally, who we
> believe we should be. In the current version of our capitalist culture,
> the images of “who we want to be” are defined by “success”. And success is
> defined as status, wealth, attractiveness, capacity and means to act as one
> pleases, etc. This is not a fulfilling conception of personhood. The goal,
> it seems to me, is to seek to change minds and societal structures that
> reflects our conceptions of what it means to be good persons, what it means
> to have good relationships, and what it means to cultivate a society that
> promotes human flourishing rather than merely human self-interest. This, I
> think, is what will make us feel whole, rather than empty.
>
>
>
> My Very Best,
>
>
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> *Michael F. Mascolo, Ph.D.*
>
> Academic Director, Compass Program
>
> Professor, Department of Psychology
> Merrimack College, North Andover, MA 01845
> 978.837.3503 (office)
> 978.979.8745 (cell)
>
>
>
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>
>
> "*Things move, persons act.*" -- Kenneth Burke
> "*If it's not worth doing, it's not worth doing well*." -- Donald Hebb
>
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>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 13, 2020, at 12:55 PM, Chance McDermott <[log in to unmask]
> <[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> This article seems to well-describe the frustrated situation that many
> experience. It is an absurd and awkward situation.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 7:57 AM nysa71 <
> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>
>
> Gregg,
>
> The article is simply neoliberalism / late stage capitalism in a
> nutshell. We need to stop trying to adapt to such a system, and start
> shifting to a system that adapts to us. The current Democratic primary is a
> perfect reflection of those two competing sentiments, with most candidates
> (if not all but one of those candidates), a reflection (to varying degrees)
> of the former sentiment. That simply will not --- and cannot --- do. It's
> why I'm a Bernie guy, and couldn't care less about the rest of them.
>
> ~ Jason
>
> On Thursday, February 13, 2020, 07:04:07 AM EST, Henriques, Gregg -
> henriqgx <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi TOK List,
>
>
>
> Someone recently shared this article with me.
>
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__medium.com_-40erikrittenberry_the-2Damerican-2Dlife-2Dis-2Dkilling-2Dyou-2D9e7e68135f4a&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=8-90KT0dJ8YlL5Ma5php2jba80GGVyRzWer8nKdQ2ME&s=9F0EC2OFfc-wJUU1wiHdgnCy8J7W23Vo3C5d79-hGLc&e=
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>
>
>
> Would love to get reactions if folks have them.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Gregg
>
>
>
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