Wonderful. I think we are in very close agreement, then. I certainly believe in the various kinds of knowing and what to take the spiritual dimension of existence framed in terms of experience deeply seriously.

Do you see points of disagreement?

Best,
G



From: tree of knowledge system discussion <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Joan Walton
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2021 7:34 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: TOK The Tree, the Coin and the Garden as the It, the I and the We

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Hi Gregg

I think the value of John Heron's work is that it does not just stay with the propositional - that is seen as  just one form of knowing, and not the most important.  So although he does refer to the term 'theology', it is not in the traditional sense of the term - he abhors traditional forms of religion and any dualistic belief systems.    He places great emphasis on the other three forms of knowing - experiential, presentational and practical.   So, for example, when a group of people met together to inquire into any aspect of being human that they had agreed to (as the focus of a cooperative inquiry) , they would often consciously seek to connect with their sense of the 'infinite' as part of the process.  (John at that time had a centre in a beautiful part of Tuscany, so being in nature did help in that).  People in the group would then share their ideas and reflections, informed by all aspects of their experience, both 'spiritual' and sensory.     As a consequence of the sharing, reflections, experiencing and learning in the group, they would then go and live their lives out  in the world, seeking to find out more, and improve, whatever the focus of their inquiry was.   It was generally a truly transformative experience, experientially and conceptually.   Practical ways of knowing were the pinnacle of the other ways of knowing - i.e. the bottom line is what kind of a positive difference can your theorising and reflections have on what actually happens on a day to day basis in the world?  What is the point of conceptualising if there is not a dynamic interaction between that, and action in the world?  Surely it is only if we integrate the two that we will address all the major crises that currently threaten planetary existence?

In this context, a sense of the spiritual is grounded in the experiential, and the theorising about what that means, emerges from the experience.   When people share what that experience felt like, what happened to them, then there can be a consideration of similarities and differences, and what the explanations for that would be.  So there is a systematic and rigorous approach to developing awareness and knowledge.   It just means that the notion of 'evidence' needs to be interpreted differently to how it is viewed within a scientific (scientistic) mindset.

In other words, however we achieve it, my interest is in creating as strong a synthesis as we can between experience (all our normal daily experiences and relationships, but also including our sense of an infinite reality, which is an integral aspect of many people's experience, including mine - e.g. what is going on when we are in a beautiful place or listen to wonderful music, and feel an expanded sense of awe and wonder; or when we connect directly with very young children and are completely responsive to their trust in us) - and theorising on that experience - developing an intertwining, mutually informing relationship between the two, with (in terms of knowledge creation) neither taking precedence.

I'm a great advocate of Bhaskar's critical realism, btw - I may have said that before, so won't repeat here.

All best
Joan
,

On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 at 11:30, Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
Many thanks, Joan. I appreciate the reflection.

If you will allow, let me add a note of clarification.  While in this context I have been emphasizing clarity about the epistemological frames applied to consciousness, I hope it is clear by virtue of the overall UTOK project that I am very much interested in ontology. Indeed, my present book, The Problem of Psychology and Its Solution, takes a view consistent with Roy Bhaskar and argues that mainstream psychological science has committed the epistemological fallacy and has attempted to frame the mental by the epistemological methods of empirical science and has neglected ontological considerations. A grave error. I show why, and then I give two descriptive metaphysical frames to map the ontology of behavior and mental processes. First, I use the Tree of Knowledge System to provide a macro-level view of the ontology of the natural world mapped by science, and then the Periodic Table of Behavior<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.psychologytoday.com_us_blog_theory-2Dknowledge_202104_seeing-2Dthe-2Dworld-2Dthrough-2Dthe-2Dperiodic-2Dtable-2Dbehavior&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=a-R6scunrO8uV7nYdJlIeiuUdu0uCSY67TBXQ82jJ2I&s=rH7SksXPK7HzqLXZtieIxZ7ECqdEMY1PqLVZEOA7NVI&e=> to show that science is about the ontological patterns of specific entities in nature across both levels and dimensions. I then show how this creates a new picture that shows that, ontologically, psychology should be thought of as the science of mental behavior (the third dimension of complexity). Then I turn to mental processes, and give the Map of Mind1,2,3,<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.psychologytoday.com_us_blog_theory-2Dknowledge_202010_the-2Dmap-2Dmind-2D1-2D2-2D3&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=a-R6scunrO8uV7nYdJlIeiuUdu0uCSY67TBXQ82jJ2I&s=_8ftieloKnE-SWPoVQuVKuxOrCc9Xbo0JZDGeQUHaqc&e=> which highlights that there are three different ontological referent domains for mental processes. They are neurocognitive processes associated with overt actions (Mind1a,1b), subjective conscious experience (Mind2) and justificatory narration in humans, privately (Mind3a) and publicly (Mind3b). Finally, I then apply Behavioral Investment Theory, the Influence Matrix, and Justification Systems theory to show how these ideas afford metatheoretical formulations that can link these domains together and assimilate and integrate the empirical literature. The results is a descriptive metaphysical system for the ontology of mental behavior, both animal and human.

Returning to your post, the mission of the podcast I started is framed as “in search of a coherent naturalistic ontology that can revitalize the soul and spirit in the 21st century”. I think naturalistic ontology is the key phrase here. As we have discussed, I am agnostic about the ontological claims regarding what I am guessing you mean by the “infinite”. More concretely, I am agnostic about parapsychology, the ultimate nature of reality, reincarnation, or any mind/consciousness without brain frame. My concern is with the ontology of natural philosophy and getting that right.

Thanks for the reference to John Heron. As I think you know, my primary job it as a therapist and I appreciate all the great traditions, including transpersonal psychology. I will look more into this contributions. My brief summary suggests he was a thoughtful individual who likely offered his clients and students much wisdom. The likely ontological difference is that he seems to embrace an ultimate spiritual ontology. I am not opposed to that, but, as he notes, knowledge claims about that are ultimately more grounded in theology than natural philosophy.

Best,
Gregg

From: tree of knowledge system discussion <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> On Behalf Of Joan Walton
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2021 5:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: TOK The Tree, the Coin and the Garden as the It, the I and the We

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Hi Gregg

I think our most interesting thoughts come when we are doing things like mowing the lawn :-)

Also, all of us who think have our frustrations, depending on where we are coming from, and what our interests are.

I think what you are doing in this listing is fascinating and worthwhile, and I have considerable respect for you as a person, otherwise I would not remain a member.  However, I have my frustrations.  I am, I know, repeating here what I have said in a different way before. But my frustration is that you focus on epistemological considerations, and pay little attention to ontological ones.  This, in my view, limits considerably what you can achieve, however interesting your work, and its relevance in a particular context.   And far too limiting when it comes to inquiring into consciousness.   For me, the ultimate framing is ontological in nature, and there can be no truly satisfying understanding of ourselves and the world without proper consideration of that.

Jung said, in his autobiography Memories, Dreams, Reflections, "The decisive question for man is: Is he related to something infinite or not?".  I think one's answer to that ontological question influences our epistemological views.   And if we  ignore it?  Well, I think our unspoken fears/ hopes/assumptions etc about the wider context in which this life is located (if, of course, there is any such context) will influence the rest of what we do and think anyway.

As I understand it, you have made a conscious decision to 'bracket out' ontological questions, to focus only on the natural world we experience, either subjectively or objectively.   Which is absolutely fine.   But that limitation will frustrate some people in the same way as Chalmers et al frustrated you.  We all choose what we select as the focus of our inquiry.

I personally have been very much influenced by John Heron (transpersonal psychologist).  He is in his 90s now, but his grandson has created a website of all his work during his lifetime https://johnheron-archive.co.uk/books<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__johnheron-2Darchive.co.uk_books&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=F_y3mWyI2J2F2UWDQJpTLREF-NeosB8t5ZHpct5OxNc&s=ZvNmUyyaYWKcKv_KrP8bS7lLaTQPJC4kjKQy3MJPLBA&e=>.  So all his writing, including his books, are freely available.      I would recommend particularly Co-operative Inquiry: Research into the Human Condition, and Sacred Science.  Probably more than any other person I have met, John has been able to integrate a huge intellect and a capacity to theorise and conceptualise,  with a passion for experiential exploration of the sacred and subtle.  And his notion of an extended epistemology - experiential, presentation, propositional and practical - is well known and used in many contexts.

I won't write more here.  I guess all I am saying - and I'm aware of this with my own interests - is that it's important to know what frustrates us and why; but it is also important to know what it is about what we are doing that may frustrate others, and why.   It may not change what choices we make about what we do, but it may help explain why the models we create don't perhaps get as much attention as we might like.

Very best wishes

Joan





On Mon, 19 Apr 2021 at 13:08, Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
Folks,

Let me give a little context for the note below on the Tree, Coin and Garden. While I was mowing my lawn over the weekend, I was listening to this “closer to the truth” series on consciousness:
Here is the first part: https://www.closertotruth.com/series/what-consciousness-part-1<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.closertotruth.com_series_what-2Dconsciousness-2Dpart-2D1&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=F_y3mWyI2J2F2UWDQJpTLREF-NeosB8t5ZHpct5OxNc&s=f35JlnOVUft2YTXZkfQ9g8Jpb5yXKX6bct8D3aKoakw&e=>. There are five parts overall.

Per usual, I found myself getting frustrated listening to these guys (per usual, it was mostly guys—but that is another conversation). The discussants were all entering in the interview from a particular frame of reference. As is my tendency, I wanted the zoomed out frame of reference for all the frames of reference. But folks did not do that. They just started from their vantage point.

The argument in my head was we need to “box in” this conversation about consciousness in general and the best place to start is to recognize three epistemological frames as follows: 1)the object-science; 2) subjective-phenomenology and 3) intersubjective-social construction epistemological frames. If you don’t do that, you get muck and equivocation rather than understanding, coherence and clarity.

Consider, for example, how to respond to a simple question: Can we observe consciousness? The answer to this question completely depends on the epistemological frame. From the Tree/objective science vantage point the answer is “only indirectly”. If we go to the Map of Mind, the objective exterior epistemology that grounds the language game of science can access it via Mind1a,b and Mind3b. That is, overt animal activity (Mind1b) gives us functional awareness and response, neurocognitive flow (Mind1a) gives us neuronal correlates, and verbal behaviors (Mind3b) give us self-report and public narration. Such are the areas that Chalmers calls “the easy problems” that indirectly teach you about subjective conscious experience, but are missing a key ingredient. Now, the reason an objective language game like science is missing a key ingredient pertaining to subjectivity is not hard to understand. The rules of scientific discourse are defined by the language of objectivity, which is a different epistemological frame than the interior epistemology of subjectivity.

If we ask the question “Can you observe consciousness” from the vantage point of subjectivity (represented by the iQuad Coin) we get a totally different answer. Of course I can observe my consciousness from the inside! Indeed, my consciousness is the epistemological portal of observation I have. Put differently, can I observe anything else? Not really. How could I?

Finally, if we shift over to the intersubjective “we”, we get into those who take a Wittgenstein language game approach and argue the whole “private public” issue is confused. Which it is, when our epistemology is framed by the shared context of intersubjective systems of justification. Thus, the language game rejection of the problem. But the problem is not at all confused when we stay with the objective-versus-subjective frame. Why else has science has such difficulty?

In other words, three totally different answers depending on the epistemological frame being brought to the discussion.

Yet, as far as I could tell, no one had a clear way to frame the frames.

And it seems to me that the Tree, Coin, and Garden make that point with relative ease.

Welcome thoughts.

Best,
G

From: Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx
Sent: Monday, April 19, 2021 7:31 AM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: TOK The Tree, the Coin and the Garden as the It, the I and the We

Hi Folks,

  Over the weekend I was thinking it might be helpful to frame the Tree, the Coin and the Garden as addressing the “it”, “I”, and the “We” such as in the following representation:

[cid:image001.png@01D735B8.5EEC0660]

I welcome thoughts…

Best,
___________________________________________
Gregg Henriques, Ph.D.
Professor
Department of Graduate Psychology
216 Johnston Hall
MSC 7401
James Madison University
Harrisonburg, VA 22807
(540) 568-7857 (phone)
(540) 568-4747 (fax)

Be that which enhances dignity and well-being with integrity.
Check out the Unified Theory Of Knowledge homepage at:
https://www.unifiedtheoryofknowledge.org/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.unifiedtheoryofknowledge.org_&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=F_y3mWyI2J2F2UWDQJpTLREF-NeosB8t5ZHpct5OxNc&s=XGDPi8BbqOxt4t8fZnqhgeLaP2mT8dV8lfOh7tTwx-M&e=>

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