Gregg ~
I am about 50 minutes in, and it's fascinating. The strongly cross-sex
behavior he describes in some primate individuals adds to the research that
Sapolsky describes, which indicates that the brains of some primate
individuals, like humans, are sexed opposite to their body. So you have
cross-sex neural networks and cross-sex small "c" cultural learning both
occurring in non-human primates. Mind 2 is a black box here, of course, but
I find it highly improbable that these troop members would not identify in
some emotional/mental way with opposite sex members. It's funny that de
Waal can't tell if he should call these individuals "gender non-conforming"
or "transgender;" of course these are all justifications on the Cultural
level and cannot apply in the same way. He also talks about "nature" and
"nurture," where of course you claim that a BPS framework is far more
effective regarding these types of phenomena, and fits nicely in the ToK.
The P, for me, is where any sense of individual gendered developmental
aspiration must be centered and realized in a human Person.
But I really appreciated his observation that these types of behaviors are
widely tolerated by primates, similar to a fair amount of indigenous groups
of humans. Contrary to the claims of the "sensemakers" who consider being
transgender to be a foolishly gnostic and postmodern invention, or the
claims of pro-trans activists who want to detach identity from the physical
completely, a look at the convergence of the actual scientific research,
not to mention cross-cultural examination in humans, paints a very
prehistoric and embodied picture.
Best,
R
On Tue, May 3, 2022 at 9:46 PM Rachel Hayden <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
> Thank you Gregg, I look forward to listening. I'm seeing the "two vector"
> view you describe showing up in the sensemaking community, along with an
> almost willful-seeming unawareness of the accumulating evidence for
> neurological underpinnings of genetic gendered behavioral predispositions
> (referencing Sapolsky and Bevins). In other words, the neural network
> forming the "part" of the "mind-brain system whole" in the Periodic Table
> of Behavior, as I understand it. To be honest, it's kind of maddening for
> me to witness the uncritical self-congratulation and
> one-sided dismissiveness occurring, in conjunction with
> massive cluelessness about what gender even is, due to a lack of proper
> fundamental framing. Despite being a non-scientist, I think I may have a
> taste of the frustration you experience regarding such topics, although of
> course this one is highly personal for me. I would feel like I was being
> arrogant about this, except for the encouragement from you, Vervaeke, and
> Callard.
>
> In gratitude,
> Rachel
>
> On Tue, May 3, 2022 at 1:00 PM Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <
> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> Hi TOK Folks,
>>
>>
>>
>> For folks interested in gender, culture, and related topics, I
>> recommend this mindscape podcast:
>>
>>
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.preposterousuniverse.com_podcast_2022_04_25_194-2Dfrans-2Dde-2Dwaal-2Don-2Dculture-2Dand-2Dgender-2Din-2Dprimates_&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=z-unO5hznS83QliijKqCPNAoSjEi0aNBKSHu2jJIbNk&s=VEFaCgrj2jMTHM3pz8tp7qd0pjas6q73Wjs542MmpME&e=
>>
>>
>>
>> Here is the caption:
>>
>> Humans are related to all other species here on Earth, but some are
>> closer relatives than others. Primates, a group that includes apes,
>> monkeys, lemurs, and others besides ourselves, are our closest relatives,
>> and they exhibit a wide variety of behaviors that we can easily recognize.
>> Frans de Waal is a leading primatologist and ethologist who has long
>> studied cognition and collective behaviors in chimps, bonobos, and other
>> species. His work has established the presence of politics, morality, and
>> empathy in primates. His new book is *Different: Gender Through the Eyes
>> of a Primatologist.
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__bookshop.org_books_different-2Dgender-2Dthrough-2Dthe-2Deyes-2Dof-2Da-2Dprimatologist_9781324007104&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=z-unO5hznS83QliijKqCPNAoSjEi0aNBKSHu2jJIbNk&s=R-lp0zIYqylkJ-sQ5Og2L5OrQtzhSkAYorT6rNPuu8U&e= >*
>>
>>
>>
>> I encourage you to listen to the episode via the UTOK lens if you are so
>> inclined. If you do, you will hear quickly that, although de Waal is very
>> sophisticated, he nonetheless still has a two vector view of nature versus
>> nurture or biology versus social learning/culture. Of course, as this blog
>> on Life, Mind and Culture makes clear, via the ToK System, UTOK shows very
>> clearly that this is the wrong ontology/metaphysics. Also please note that
>> there is confusion or overlap as to whether his work is animal psychology,
>> ethology or biological behavioral science. Of course, on the ToK everything
>> that he is talking about is in Mind. All the patterns are mental behavioral
>> patterns of investment.
>>
>>
>>
>> Also, notice the stuff about gender and culture. Clearly, in primates, at
>> the level of minded patterns of investment, we see gendered patterns and
>> culture. LITTLE ‘c” culture that is, which refers to behavioral repertories
>> picked up and transferred across the generations in specific populations.
>> Many social animals have this. Yet, OF COURSE, there is no Culture-Person
>> plane of operation.
>>
>>
>>
>> Also note the gendered patterns in chimps and bonobos are clearly
>> recognizable in humans (i.e., feminine being more cooperative and
>> relational, masculine more competitive and hierarchical, less oriented
>> toward care of young). And I thought his report of Donna, the female chimp
>> who behaved with lots of masculine energy, to be fascinating.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Gregg
>>
>>
>>
>> ___________________________________________
>>
>> Gregg Henriques, Ph.D.
>> President of the Society for the Exploration of Psychotherapy Integration
>> (2022)
>>
>> Professor
>> Department of Graduate Psychology
>> 216 Johnston Hall
>> MSC 7401
>> James Madison University
>> Harrisonburg, VA 22807
>> (540) 568-7857 (phone)
>> (540) 568-4747 (fax)
>>
>>
>> *Be that which enhances dignity and well-being with integrity.*
>>
>> Check out the Unified Theory Of Knowledge homepage at:
>>
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.unifiedtheoryofknowledge.org_&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=z-unO5hznS83QliijKqCPNAoSjEi0aNBKSHu2jJIbNk&s=CTKuZPOdsRfJCN_hRgeV7vLTBeDlM6yIk6mgPW1DWSs&e=
>>
>>
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