I agree 100% with dear Zachary.
There actually already exists one massive UBI experiment in the world and
you may study it to see how it all went.
It is called Saudi Arabia.
Shopping centers full of 29-year-old obese diabetics while foreigners do
all the meaningful paid work in the country.
Is that the sort of society you would want to create?
Don't fiddle with the deep deep human connection between contribution and
reward is my suggestion. And forget that there won't be any jobs in the
future. There will tons of them. The question what kind of experiemtial
quality they will provide though. But that's an entirely different matter
and not a case for UBI (which still has to be paid, massively paid, by
somebody as well).
Best intentions
Alexander

Den tis 8 okt. 2019 kl 21:49 skrev Zachary Stein <[log in to unmask]>:

> Hi ToK list,
>
> Having published about UBI as a non expert (I am a philosopher of
> education [UBI is one of my “social miracles
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.zakstein.org_podcast-2Don-2Dthe-2D13-2Dsocial-2Dmiracles_&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=wKEReAVChWY8Vz7XUdk46-3L-Ozjy3OWEKf62YcS0Ig&s=adNfmgPQWPHgxF8__jcfIKBjBmOkmpTUv0KZvLbgX4Q&e=>”]),
> I will say that it is dangerous when taken up in isolation from other
> social programs and especially educational initiatives.
>
> Indeed, there are scenarios where the UBI is a true nightmare, and I am
> not talking about inflation and other economic fallout — I am talking about
> meaninglessness, de-skilled apathy, addiction, suicide, i.e.,
> total/catastrophic mental health crisis. (The same holds for a so-called
> "guaranteed work program," if done in isolation from related social
> programs and educational initiatives).
>
> UBI is as much (more so?) an educational/cultural issue then a math
> problem in economics.
>
> Even if we can make the numbers work the real hard problem is making the
> idea work as a part of the current human identity structure  (i.e., as part
> of our self-system's role-taking and social justification dynamics).
>
> Who am I if I am not a wage laborer? That is the question. If the culture
> and individual can’t answer that but the economists and politicians go
> ahead and take away the category of wage labor, well, there will be a
> society wide equivalent of an identity crisis or nervous breakdown.
>
> Of course, the elephant in the room is *the massive and ever increasing
> economic inequality.* Remember when Piketty was a best seller? The math he
> laid out is still true. The whole compounding interest thing still holds.
> UBI may be a nonstarter but something (somebody?) has to give.
>
> Instead of justifying UBI to people taking issue, I often ask "what else
> sounds good that is as radical in its admission of the need for
> redistribution?” My answer has something to do with an education
> renaissance/revolution, but that is another story.
>
> Fall colors in Vermont.
>
> zak
>
>
>
>
> On Oct 8, 2019, at 2:55 PM, nysa71 <
> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Gregg,
>
> Here's a link to the Job Guarantee FAQ by Pavlina Tcherneva, Associate
> Professor of Economics at Bard University and research scholar at the Levy
> Institute. She specializes in Modern Monetary Theory and public policy, and
> is one of the foremost experts on the Job Guarantee proposal. Besides the
> FAQ, there's all kinds of publications and videos on the JG, (plus other
> topics, including Pavlina's issues with the UBI).
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.pavlina-2Dtcherneva.net_job-2Dguarantee-2Dfaq&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=rjee1eYl5YzkYNAkgBa-ODR4rPb6Fjd-zr16s9R16zc&s=v4jGBIZIqNY26c6M8Ua87_c32pETq03pgQ8klOgsJE8&e=
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.pavlina-2Dtcherneva.net_job-2Dguarantee-2Dfaq&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=LxhB8U3ALgvJxZndV4-OoLa5NXlPJ_sCpYIH5GSCqog&s=K2pjLYZg52UM_8vEy6D8C7kQLzvaZW2AWPLoD5yUczg&e=>
>
> ~ Jason Bessey
>
> Job Guarantee FAQ | pavlina-tcherneva
>
>
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.pavlina-2Dtcherneva.net_job-2Dguarantee-2Dfaq&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=LxhB8U3ALgvJxZndV4-OoLa5NXlPJ_sCpYIH5GSCqog&s=K2pjLYZg52UM_8vEy6D8C7kQLzvaZW2AWPLoD5yUczg&e=>
>
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, October 8, 2019, 09:41:00 AM EDT, Peter Lloyd Jones <
> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>
> Bad email program…
> Should be:
> Beyond that there is *no* substantive threat.
>
>
> Peter Lloyd Jones
> [log in to unmask]
> 562-209-4080
>
> Sent by determined causes that no amount of will is able to thwart.
>
>
>
> On Oct 8, 2019, at 9:37 AM, Peter Lloyd Jones <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> Thank you Joseph for your note about tempering expectations.
>
> As a former mediocre road racer, I have a lot of experience in riding
> around on race tracks during races. Yang is using his
> presidential-candidate platform to promote certain ideas. Beyond that there
> is  substantive threat. O’Rourke has stated that he will take away our
> guns. They are both introducing progressive concepts because, without
> blood, politics moves slowly. You need to start somewhere. They know that
> they have sacraficed their candidacies to mold allowable discussions moving
> forward. Years ago if you just asked if weed might have medical uses, your
> political career was over. Today...
>
> This is about ideas, which might be good and bad ideas, but it’s not about
> who will be the next president.
>
> Vote early and often.
> Best to all,
> Peter
>
>
> Peter Lloyd Jones
> [log in to unmask]
> 562-209-4080
>
> Sent by determined causes that no amount of will is able to thwart.
>
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