Beautifully said, Micheal.

I merely dissent on the juxtaposition of natural vs human/social sciences.
Humans are natural beings, so the symbolization ability is inherently
natural. Don`t get me wrong: there is no doubt an epistemological emergence
in the cultural dominion due to something like Gregg`s JH (he would
probably argue for an onto_epistemicological emergence, I nevertheless
prefer to focus only on a epistemological plane, as I have some concerns
with ontological emergentism). Social sciences are legitimately separated
from natural sciences. However, I have some concerns in labelling morality
as something that is not natural. Maybe it should be better to describe it
as something that needs more than a naturalistic paradigm to be
satisfactorily explained, I won't question you on that. But that morality
is not natural, that doesn't sound convincing.

Neither I am an advocate of neuroethics, for the record. Social sciences
are on a different plane of
explanation (connected to " lower " planes, though not determined by them).

A beautiful essay by the philosopher Alex Morgan came to my mind
("representations gone mental"). He argues that symbolization is present
not only in animals but also in plants and maybe in things as well. As
always, the problem is that we do not have a unanimous definition of what a
symbol is.

In TOK`s terms, however,  symbolic justification is uniquely human. Problem
is, we do not exactly know what a justification is. As Gregg knows, I have
my personal formulation (a proposition aimed at explaining why), but
perhaps I am going too far....

Any thoughts?

Andrea


Il sab 28 nov 2020 21:38 Greg Thomas <[log in to unmask]> ha scritto:

> *CAUTION: *This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click links
> or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is
> safe.
> ------------------------------
> Thanks, Michael, for bringing up insights by Kenneth Burke. He was a
> favorite of two of my key intellectual and cultural influences, Ralph
> Ellison and Albert Murray.
>
> Here's a post-election essay in which I refer to Burke also:
>
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.tuneintoleadership.com_blog_election-2Dreflections-2Dand-2Dthe-2Dblues-2Didiom&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=v51Yy0gZ0uAsUQ0WD5FIICleBicZB97jjJJntpu1kJQ&s=m0N6TApkzFUXcXMnfbZ0H-XlUnIQGxSBPiBT20noiRs&e= 
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.tuneintoleadership.com_blog_election-2Dreflections-2Dand-2Dthe-2Dblues-2Didiom&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=QscKv3YjvxhGbrSz5LurOMaJrmEROKMKND9yQAlFo3Q&s=S9KxYbM6riQ0w4B1o0JJuKz510kDBH4L0rgFqNUlbKk&e=>
>
> Greg Thomas
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 12:56 PM Michael Mascolo <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
>> *CAUTION: *This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click links
>> or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is
>> safe.
>> ------------------------------
>> Nick and All:
>>
>> Nick: I read your Is-Ought Fallacy essay with interest.
>>
>> I will focus only on the central point as it relates to the is-ought
>> fallacy.  You write:
>>
>> There only IS, there is no ought. There can’t be an ought outside of an
>> idea, which is a conclusion subjectively derived either mentally or
>> biologically to perpetuate a belief system or evolutionary process,
>> respectively and very generally speaking in a mind and matter dialectic.
>>
>>
>> In his famous "definition of man" [sic], Kenneth Burke, building on
>> Spinoza, remarked that “there is no negative in nature”.  That is, there is
>> only “there” in nature — there is no “not there”.  The “not there” is
>> provided by symbol using animals.  With the capacity to build symbols,
>> humans (and some other animals) are capable of inventing the negative — the
>> “no — the “not there”.  And with the “not there” — this wonderful invention
>> of symbol using (and mis-using) animals, comes the capacity for morality —
>> that is, the sense of what is “not there” but *should* or *ought *to be
>> there.
>>
>> In this way, I would suggest that Nick is right that there is no ought in
>> the natural world — no reason why the tiger ought not to eat the lamb.
>> However, there are oughts in the human world — in the human world of *shared
>> symbolically-mediated experience*.  Oughts are forms of evaluation (what
>> the philosopher Charles Taylor calls “strong evaluations”) . They are
>> brought into existence through the human capacity for symbolization as it
>> occurs within *intersubjective* exchanges with others.  That is to say
>> that the “ideas” of which “oughts” are a part are *not* simply
>> subjective constructions; ideas are not private experiences that are
>> encased within individual persons. Ideas have their basis in the human
>> capacity for symbolic and *intersubjective* (that is
>> “inter-experiential) engagement with each other.  Oughts are created in the
>> very process of our intersubjective engagement with each other: I take the
>> bread out of your mouth; you resist, cry, strike out; I feel empathy, fear
>> or the like.  We now have the task of figuring out how we ought coordinate
>> our needs.  This brings us to the oughts of morality.
>>
>> And so, I suggest that oughts exist — not the the natural world, but in
>> the intersubjective world of human relations.  Although the intersubjective
>> world is constructed, it is as real as the material world. It just exists
>> in our human experience.
>>
>> All my very best,
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>> *Michael F. Mascolo, Ph.D. *Academic Director, Compass Program
>> Professor, Department of Psychology
>> Merrimack College, North Andover, MA 01845
>> 978.837.3503 (office)
>> 978.979.8745 (cell)
>>
>>
>> Political and Interpersonal Conflict Website: Creating Common Ground
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.creatingcommonground.org&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=YA_ijQ3chmDdsJgj8iyaG_z8r13yb_amgEJH12PrC8Y&s=dgTa_pW0C9MTBqjmeOfFCBWMAgWLLxS5z7t9gDbZ0d0&e=>
>> Blog: Values Matter
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.psychologytoday.com_us_blog_values-2Dmatter&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=YA_ijQ3chmDdsJgj8iyaG_z8r13yb_amgEJH12PrC8Y&s=LwOrxJ8xvwG1edjvJ2-uZQSdwDuU8bF_EDetto7rCtI&e=>
>> Journal: Pedagogy and the Human Sciences
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__scholarworks.merrimack.edu_phs_&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=YA_ijQ3chmDdsJgj8iyaG_z8r13yb_amgEJH12PrC8Y&s=hoRbCyL4HmDFe3bi-4iNDNl96g-XtkQSw9mTzO7XoBo&e=>
>> Author and Coaching Website: www.michaelmascolo.com
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.michaelmascolo.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=YA_ijQ3chmDdsJgj8iyaG_z8r13yb_amgEJH12PrC8Y&s=gOFU3lvnXNjFnp7sJV-3BhanDrtg2wRVuQyQ7wmV_8I&e=>
>> Academia Home Page
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__merrimack.academia.edu_MichaelMascolo&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=YA_ijQ3chmDdsJgj8iyaG_z8r13yb_amgEJH12PrC8Y&s=j01BbHSTUCVYFR7RGPc9Zabc531p4JBJdkiWaDFturk&e=>
>>
>> Constructivist Meetup Series
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.constructivistmeetup.org&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=YA_ijQ3chmDdsJgj8iyaG_z8r13yb_amgEJH12PrC8Y&s=hC0cpAZOxmCox7_jGJJ0uqAYfvW9JbR9ahatrPDewlU&e=>
>>
>> *Things move, persons act.* -- Kenneth Burke
>> *If it's not worth doing, it's not worth doing well*. -- Donald Hebb
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Nov 28, 2020, at 12:24 PM, Nicholas Lattanzio <[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> *CAUTION: *This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click links
>> or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is
>> safe.
>> ------------------------------
>> Well Gregg, that does appear to be the question doesn't it? I imagine the
>> 1st-person perspective equivalent to what you're describing as me being
>> able to see in all directions, and based on what is perceived make attempts
>> to look at itself by those same perceptual processes. Like the hole in a
>> donut trying to see itself as the donut and the hole simultaneously.
>> Although you may not be satisfied with my answer, which of course comes
>> from a nondual perspective, I hope you can see the value of the position I
>> take in finding an answer from the position you take, I believe therein
>> lies the key, a sort of nondual empiricism.
>>
>> But I think we'd agree that the situation you've described is our current
>> state of affairs (i.e, literally all of your work to systematize knowledge
>> and more). I think that this kind of barrier is in our definition of
>> ourselves. "We" can't get that view as individual human beings or forms of
>> life. The systems, ecological and otherwise, that allow life to exist also
>> can't get that view. They are two sides of the same coin, and we are that
>> coin. We are that unknown knower. I am this (a human, secondarily
>> identified as "Nik") so that I can know that (apparently external reality),
>> and I am that (the reality) so that I can know/be this (the apparently
>> separate individual human identified as "Nik"). To define my existence
>> according to only what I am conscious of or can be made conscious of (our
>> existing knowledge systems) doesn't appreciate the limitations of the human
>> organism, nor does it give credence to the omnipotence of existence itself.
>>
>> I was free writing about this earlier in thinking about Is-Ought, I
>> figure I'll format into an essay but I've attached it below. It may better
>> address your question if I am understanding it correctly. Quite a
>> thought-provoking discussion!
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Nicholas G. Lattanzio, Psy.D.
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 9:54 AM Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <
>> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Thanks, Nik. As you know, I am a big fan.
>>>
>>>  Here is my question:
>>>
>>> What if the object you are looking at is an evolving 7 dimensional set
>>> of nested cones that we are both inside of but trying to get an outside
>>> view of?
>>>
>>> (To get seven plus the inside/out,  there are three space, one time in
>>> Matter, which is four, then there the superimposed Life, Mind, and Culture
>>> dimensions, then there is the scientist that is from the inside trying to
>>> be on the outside, the there is the Imaginary Garden perspective that
>>> factors the scientific knower perspective in then out which then collapses
>>> into wisdom energy)
>>>
>>> Hope folks have a good break 😄✌️.
>>>
>>> G
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>
>>> On Nov 28, 2020, at 10:18 AM, Nicholas Lattanzio <[log in to unmask]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>  *CAUTION: *This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click
>>> links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the
>>> content is safe.
>>> ------------------------------
>>> Greetings all!
>>>
>>> I hope everyone was able to enjoy some sort of festivities with loved
>>> ones in recent days.
>>>
>>> Given the complex nature of the varied listserv discussions and
>>> community presentations over the past few months in particular, I thought
>>> I'd share this short (7min) bit of wisdom spoken by the brilliant Daniel
>>> Schmachtenberger. Enjoy!!
>>>
>>>
>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__youtu.be_ZNcyc-5FsEtpU&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=v51Yy0gZ0uAsUQ0WD5FIICleBicZB97jjJJntpu1kJQ&s=Qbww_bC1dCwk2io7kmrGWiSltEsrH_HhcyJNawm7RX4&e= 
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__youtu.be_ZNcyc-5FsEtpU&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=zPCtsvHTO1_srLNBYxiLq3MphYKIqpWTRXplqU9H_fQ&s=vFydBqoN6IlVrdLwkI3llciIB4XYhpFzJYGOo2OUlDQ&e=>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Nicholas G. Lattanzio, Psy.D.
>>> ############################
>>>
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>> ############################
>>
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>> <The Is-Ought Fallacy_Free Writing1.pdf>
>>
>>
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