Hi All
Good afternoon or morning to everyone, I only stick my nose in once and a while, read the threads such as this one sometimes I understand and others my lack of experience doesn't allow me to grip the descriptions of your experiences. I went back to school at 42 to get my hs diploma, 60 now, and am I bit of a tok fan.
This past Friday Gregg, John and Garri released the 4th episode of their current project Pysche Pathology and We'll Being, it was a beautiful integration of all the work John, Gregg and their many contributors during the Untangling the World Knot, and the Elusive I, I really think you're all going to enjoy this very much and hope you'll watch.
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__youtu.be_ms3Strk8-2D-2Ds&d=DwIF-g&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=SJeT7tqsyCU8ePATbmqcCEHyGzRHnR5JWJzx5lQzuZ0&s=wTXjxktuZIbwfO8IL5-Yf1xeBj_MdSULnbkCOQK60Yg&e=
Kind Regards
William J McCartan
Billy
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From: theory of knowledge society discussion <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Adriana Forte Naili <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 6:45:42 AM
To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: TOK Powerful Sleep Meditation Experience
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Bruce, thank you for sharing here the information about your teacher's course. I’ll look into it.
Michael, II haven’t researched near death experiences but they seem very plausible to me.
My very first Ayahuasca experience, many years ago, felt like death. Funny to say that, since I haven’t yet died ;-) but the start of the journey took me into stages of experience that I later came to know as the bardos.
My experience was so intense and real that it sparked in me the interest to study more about the dying process (more specifically the process of abstraction from form). I also came to know that ayahuasca is spoken of as “little death” in some tribes in South America and this nickname speaks to the way her journeys tend to unfold for me. So no research into NDE and yet somehow it feels very familiar. :-)
On 14 Mar 2022, at 13:35, michael kazanjian <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
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Adriana,
Have you researched NDE or near death experiences? The jury is still out for me. People I know have had NDEs.
Michael M. Kazanjian
On Sunday, March 13, 2022, 09:34:01 PM CDT, Adriana Forte Naili <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
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Appreciating the thread and the exchanges. I have been also fascinated and “working” with dreams lately and have just finished a course on the process of dying, which also fascinates me.
I have really enjoyed reading your shares.Thank you. :-)
On 12 Mar 2022, at 05:40, Tim Pickerill <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
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Bruce I know you have done a lot of work with this in particular - I have stayed clear from it as I have had horrible insomnia for years which acupuncture thankfully fixed, clear light is enough for me - can you maybe describe some of your experiences?
On Fri, Mar 11, 2022 at 1:35 PM Bruce Alderman <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
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Yes, that is the teacher at whose house I was living.
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I very much recommend this book which describes the practice- basically what you described but formalized as a practice.
T
On Fri, Mar 11, 2022 at 12:17 PM Tim Pickerill <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
Very cool Nick, I would recommend checking out Tibetan teachings on this. As Bruce described there are well developed practices for this which I do not believe you need to belong to a sect in order to practice. Belonging to the Karma Kadgu school I do Clear Light practice of the 15th Karmapa which is different but adjacent. Before going to sleep you embody light in your heart chakra and hold that in any waking or lucid states that may arise. Coming to a lucid state as light/conscious awareness is very interesting and points to what you speak of - base mind.
Good luck in your mind travels
On Fri, Mar 11, 2022 at 11:01 AM Bruce Alderman <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
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Nicholas, very interesting. Thanks for sharing this here. I'm a little skeptical of the source or guide for this particular meditation, but not of your experiences. I studied dream and sleep yoga for several years while living at a Tibetan lama's house, and recognize - not exactly in form, but in spirit and in some of the phenomenal and processual particulars - the territory you are describing.
Tibetan tradition differentiates between samsaric dreams, dreams of clarity, and clear light dreams. Samsaric dreams, as you can imagine, are dreams driven by past experiences and our emotional reactions to them, our fixations, etc. Dreams of clarity are dreams where some deeper wisdom shines through, where we receive some genuine spiritual insight, some existential and moral clarity. They are "teaching dreams" or "initiatory dreams" -- Big Dreams, in Jung's sense. And dreams of clear light are generally lucid dreams, but not just lucid in the sense of recognizing we are dreaming; they may also involve the recognition of awareness itself, of the base of awareness. In sleep yoga, you practice the (reflexivie) recognition of base awareness in the Delta state, where there is typically no thought or other content present. The 'clear light' here is not a brilliant (visual) white light, of course, but the simple clarity of awareness itself.
The transition from a surface-content orientation, a phenomenal orientation, to the 'causal emptiness' of a content-free Delta state can (for me also) feel like a "sucking into" or "sucking back into."
On Fri, Mar 11, 2022 at 6:49 AM Nicholas Lattanzio <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
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Good morning fellow UTOKers,
I just wanted to share a powerful experience I had unintentionally while doing one of those odd Joe Dispenza meditations (which last like 3 hours typically). It was a very hybrid meditation, starting with Dispenza orienting us towards different energy centers in the body and trying to experience them simultaneously (something I've always struggled with since I tend to shift directly into a more panoramic awareness).
So as I was doing this I began to fall asleep, which will happen time to time for any regular meditator even after years of practice, and I would do the routine zazen-esque redirecting of my attention whenever I noticed I was nodding off (very much like when we seem to "jerk ourselves" awake when falling asleep in your leisure spot). As this deepened, probably about 90-120min into the meditation, there was a strong detachment wherein my visual field seemed to shrink away like I was being pulled back into the Isness 'behind the eyes,' which is different than self-abidance or resting as nondual awareness- this was closer to an "encounter with the void."
Although my eyes were closed, I still had a visual field, and aside from my visual snow that field was empty until I 'got sucked back.' Suddenly I started to see images, and it was an experience where the empty field seemed to flip (perceptually it was literally like the nothing flipped over to something like flipping a coin), and I was watching images play like a movie across a portion of my visual field (the part that I had been sucked back from). Though I was not thinking, I was still there. I ended up nodding off even in that state and went into the images that I am convinced now we're an actual dream, as I began to experience it first hand. This led to a lucid dream realization (a very rare occurrence for me), and upon realizing I was dreaming I was sucked back out into the space.
This happened 2 or 3 times before I went to the space again and either actually fell asleep or shifted back to the meditation (I have no way of knowing if I actually passed out or not since I wasn't keeping time, but when I came back to the meditation there was about 30min left so it couldn't have been long).
Having practiced self-inquiry for years now I was no stranger to the state of no-self, total deidentification with content, which was the space I was being sucked back to. I say this because after switching out of the dream I had absolutely no idea who I was, and I for sure was not dreaming that I was myself, I was a different race and in the dream I knew a different name. Being sucked back I was still able to observe the dream and when going back in would pick it up as if I was running into the the screen of a movie to join the actual movie and absorb into the screen.
The usefulness of this relates directly to nondual awareness (no self), and has relevance for the ToK System in particular. What happened here is sleep meditation, a very advanced and not well known meditation wherein the meditator allows the body to fall asleep and remains as the witness throughout sleep. Sleep meditation is almost impossible to look up online, all you'll really find is guided meditations to help you sleep and similar minor cultural appropriations of meditation, but it is a nondual practice and is common in several Hindu and some Buddhist schools.
The relevance for ToK System is that this was a first-person experience of what can be said to be at least the base of Mind, as nondual awareness precedes even consciousness and certainly identification (Culture). And, though anecdotal, this experience is entirely consistent with research on nondual awareness as underlying any content or phenomenon regardless of their presence (with the exception that my brain wasn't being imaged). I was deep in a state of wakefulness for at least most of the meditation itself, suggesting alpha waves predominating early, the periods wherein I was watching the dream "flip" on and off strongly suggest theta waves were increasingly present, I don't believe I reached deep sleep/delta wave sleep, despite apparent REM-phases, so if there were Delta waves I was present with them, as I definitely did not awaken from a deep sleep at any point in this.
Thought it would be interesting to share, this is right on the line between 1st and 3rd person empiricisms. Would love to hear what people have to say, even of you're skeptical of my experience.
Regards,
Nicholas G. Lattanzio, Psy.D.
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