I would say that if you are a materialist who insists on solid particles
instead of standing waves and can only see a dualism when speaking of
consciousness then you just won't get anywhere.

My stand is that the All, or what is called by some Mind, is waves and that
the relationships between waves and their harmonics is in fact the origin
of Qualia and that this system of Space, Field/Mind, Energy/Source, Self,
Other, Number, Relationship/Harmonics is the stuff of Consciousness. What
we call Anthropocentric Consciousness is one among possibly many forms or
stages of Consciousness as the totalCosmos/localUniverse Evolves in
self-organization and autopoietic growth. What we are experiencing is not
emergent, it is evolved just as the organization of matter so to the
relationships and the meaning which comes from the qualia of these
relationships.

His comment about not changing the laws of physics to deal/fit
consciousness is a dead end road block for his ability to think on this
subject I would also say.

Thanks for the link.

Timothy Rollin Pickerill
Business - https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.AudioVideoArts.com_&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=LW1KGheuyZyLS-07t8wKXTfl9wlT_12DX_cRg6nHoZc&s=RP35JV5lQLA5aAv65XNSWTQ84HxTklg5Ckb4SBuf9LU&e= 
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646-299-4173 (cell)


On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 5:53 PM William McCartan <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

> *CAUTION: *This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click links
> or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is
> safe.
> ------------------------------
> What a fantastic conversation Gregg, really insightful, informative and
> enjoyable.
>
> Thank you for sharing, have a great night
>
> Get Outlook for Android
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__aka.ms_AAb9ysg&d=DwMF-g&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=MtMdTsD-8jWtVdfUB124nOzbw2riOHbGm00I744OXiw&s=T4tckhCweQ4wQbVBYTUAtiQiqSsDFYUQtQR49zKezo8&e=>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* theory of knowledge society discussion <
> [log in to unmask]> on behalf of Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <
> [log in to unmask]>
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 11, 2021 3:21:39 PM
> *To:* [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
> *Subject:* TOK Sean Carroll almost gets the key concept for emergence
>
>
> Hi Folks,
>
>
>
> This is for geeks interested in the problem of emergence:
>
>
>
>    I finished the Carroll-Seth podcast which is mostly on emergence, and
> somewhat on consciousness. I wrote the list a few days ago saying this was
> a bit disappointing given the start and the remarkable confusion and
> floundering laying out the situation. However, listening to the back half
> of the conversation I found that Seth and Carroll were very close to
> arriving at what I considered to be the central issue dealing with
> emergence. This is the difference of what happens at the “joint points” of
> Life, Mind and Culture. That is, there are some variants of emergence going
> from particles to atoms to molecules, we can frame these as emergence
> within a dimension of complexification. However, the key is the jumps into
> new dimensions and what it means.
>
>
>
> In this exchange, they are talking about Seth’s approach to framing
> systems in terms of their macro- or “coarse-grained” states and arguing
> that macro- or coarse-grained forms might play a role in causing things to
> happen in the world. The key to see why this is definitely the case, is to
> focus on how observers perceive the world. That is, we perceive coarse
> grained forms. (More accurately, we obtain partial sense data that then is
> matched to expectations/schema, but that is irrelevant). It is because
> observers perceive forms that coarse grained forms have causal impacts on
> the world, at least at the level of Life, Mind, and Culture.
>
>
>
> *What is super cool in this exchange is that Sean Carroll sort of sees
> this. The clip is from 56 minutes to about 1 hour 1 minute. *
>
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__drive.google.com_file_d_1hvGpG0KT3ZbnxzA6p9EEs9alzwSz0-2DJ-2D_view-3Fusp-3Dsharing&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=LW1KGheuyZyLS-07t8wKXTfl9wlT_12DX_cRg6nHoZc&s=2E2o5yYbHt-RM28ikXA00fOShWNwrcEzw5XAHK-WmeU&e= 
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__drive.google.com_file_d_1hvGpG0KT3ZbnxzA6p9EEs9alzwSz0-2DJ-2D_view-3Fusp-3Dsharing&d=DwMF-g&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=MtMdTsD-8jWtVdfUB124nOzbw2riOHbGm00I744OXiw&s=snhwMRgVptDnGrkSfuiiWRHxrwVu_gkODu7j4vvyJak&e=>
>
>
>
> He explicitly says something along the lines that, “Hmmm, if I just see
> the coarse grained form, then doesn’t that play a causal role in what I
> do”. Unfortunately, Seth does not pick up on what Carroll is laying down.
> He, like so many people, is thinking about solving the emergence property
> problem from within. However, it is solved by understanding information
> processing and communication between observing detecting systems, precisely
> because they operate on the inFORMational patterns they detect. And,
> because of that, we know that it is the coarse grained patterns that play a
> causal role in the perception and because of that, we know that there is a
> new kind of causal emergence in the world when we get living, mental, and
> cultural information processing and communication networks.
>
>
>
> This is important because, as this podcast highlights, the matter-mind
> relation is tangled up in understanding the nature of emergence.
>
>
>
> Best,
> Gregg
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________
>
> Gregg Henriques, Ph.D.
> Professor
> Department of Graduate Psychology
> 216 Johnston Hall
> MSC 7401
> James Madison University
> Harrisonburg, VA 22807
> (540) 568-7857 (phone)
> (540) 568-4747 (fax)
>
>
> *Be that which enhances dignity and well-being with integrity.*
>
> Check out the Unified Theory Of Knowledge homepage at:
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.unifiedtheoryofknowledge.org_&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=LW1KGheuyZyLS-07t8wKXTfl9wlT_12DX_cRg6nHoZc&s=xlGCLhAUOdpNZ63hTye3CUdcwMJd5CiSngjaIIHlMRk&e= 
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.unifiedtheoryofknowledge.org_&d=DwMF-g&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=MtMdTsD-8jWtVdfUB124nOzbw2riOHbGm00I744OXiw&s=HENGs7lSj14S1WRsSqOaaLPWa9RPqwSpW3nM-rw0gB8&e=>
>
>
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