Hi Joe,
Thank you very much.
The lockdown protesters are law abiding citizens, as far as I know, and
I would go so far as to say their reaction is healthy: they are angry
that they are losing their livelihood.
Their education is insufficient (to say the least) and their way of
protesting is really not wise when facing a contagious virus, but what
other means do they have with the resources they have and the (almost)
failed state in which they live?
/ Lene
On 27-04-2020 19:00, Joseph Michalski wrote:
> Hi folks. I'm not sure if I'm the only sociologist within the ToK
> Society listserv, but I'll weigh in with two issues: 1) distal vs.
> proximal causes; and 2) "explaining" vs. "excusing" behavior.
>
> On the first issue, I'm following up on Lene's distinction between
> childhood and adult issues. A major limitation in our sociological
> research revolves around the problem of studying behavior in "real
> time" and "over time." We rarely conduct the types of studies that
> would allow us to model human behavior over time and evaluate the
> "mechanisms" that produce different behavioral outcomes, whether at
> the individual or group level. We certainly do very little
> experimental research or RCTs. That said, it's not uncommon in
> sociology to conduct waves of surveys or retrospective interviews to
> assess childhood experiences. What comes out of these studies are
> suggestive correlations or the identification of "risk factors"
> associated with certain outcomes. Often the "outcomes" in question are
> "bad" things that happen or that people do (which speaks to the second
> issue that I'll get to in a few moments). Let me us a study of mine
> that I published in 2017 to illustrate.
>
> I interviewed two "matched" cohorts of males mostly in their early
> 20s: 1) 38 inmates who had been convicted of murder, attempted murder
> or violent robberies from Ontario; and 2) 66 university students of
> the same generation and raised in Ontario as well. The in-depth,
> retrospective interviews covered 4 time periods: 1) early childhood (<
> 6 years old); 2) transition to adolescence; 3) high school years; and
> 4) early adulthood. Long story short, the sample of convicted "violent
> offenders" were far more likely to have experienced "toxic childhood
> environments," defined as having been exposed to a minimum of 3 of the
> following 6 conditions:
>
>
> *Table 2: Parental Behaviors by Age Five for Inmates and Students*
>
> Parental Behaviors
>
>
>
> % Inmates
>
> (n = 38)
>
>
>
> % Students
>
> (n = 66)
>
> Daily drinking or alcoholism
>
>
>
> 57.9
>
>
>
> 45.5
>
> Drug use or addiction
>
>
>
> 44.7
>
>
>
> 6.1
>
> Criminal involvement
>
>
>
> 21.1
>
>
>
> 4.5
>
> Family violence/spousal conflict
>
>
>
> 76.3
>
>
>
> 16.7
>
> Child maltreatment
>
>
>
> 57.9
>
>
>
> 13.7
>
> Family instability
>
>
>
> 47.4
>
>
>
> 12.1
>
>
> In total, 30 of 38 inmates experienced at least 3 of the above
> conditions through age 5. Only 2 of the university students had
> experienced similar "toxic childhood experiences" over the course of
> their entire childhood years. The differences in early childhood
> experience, combined with what happened at each key life transition
> (e.g., about half of the inmates with the toxic environments had
> joined gangs by the time they were teens), led the two cohorts down
> very different pathways that landed them in vastly different state
> institutions. As young adults (18-24), the inmates were far more
> likely to have committed violent crimes (and most did not complete
> high school) and most of the university students had not. That's the
> overall, simplified view.
>
> People then ask me about how I can interview violent offenders and not
> react to some of the awful stories that I hear about (and, yes, some
> of the violent offences are quite disturbing and predatory in nature).
> I make the point that I'm not there trying to "excuse" the behavior or
> condone what they have done, but rather I'm just trying to understand
> their pathways into violent criminality and compare that with people
> who have gone down different pathways. It's obviously a quite inexact
> science, at least with the methodology that I used. At the same time,
> these data (and many other studies) confirm that there are indeed many
> "risk factors" and long-lasting impacts of adverse childhood
> experiences (e.g., the narratives and examples the inmates provide of
> what actually happened to them are in many cases even more disturbing
> than their eventual crimes). And that's our conundrum. We want to
> explain why people do "bad" things without "excusing" or condoning the
> behavior. And that's why there's a parallel struggle in the criminal
> justice system in the efforts to balance the "punishments" (or
> "retribution") for bad behavior with the "therapeutic" dimensions
> aimed at "rehabilitation." And this gets to the core of some
> philosophical differences too in terms of the main objective of the
> criminal justice system (e.g., retribution vs. rehabilitation).
>
> I hope this is helpful in terms of the contextual view that I take as
> a sociologist. What I did /not/ do or have access to would be the
> psychosocial profiles of the inmates or students, especially in
> relation to the critical junctures and life events. I don't know how
> many would register as having mental illnesses, for example, or how
> many had conditions such as ADD/ADHD (though some volunteered such
> info). I mainly know (imperfectly) with /some/ degree of confidence
> that being raised in toxic environments drastically increased the odds
> of doing violent, horrible stuff happening in young adulthood. The
> university students had far less toxic environments by comparison and,
> when they /did/ do "bad" things as teens or start down different
> pathways, they had more resources and social supports to help get them
> back on track (e.g., more likely to have parents deeply involved in
> their lives or a teacher or a coach who invested heavily or loved them
> unconditionally).
>
> An editorial observation. Almost all of the inmates, while not
> necessarily "enlightened Buddhas" or people who would likely be in my
> inner circle of friends, were actually fairly "normal" in terms of our
> conversations, the efforts they were taking to improve their
> schooling, aspirations for not ending up back in jail, family
> concerns, etc. I'm not suggesting that they're mainly getting all that
> they need in prison and will come out as role models - many still have
> their own problems with addictions, lack of credentials, psych issues
> that are beyond my bailiwick, while many also lack support systems
> if/when they get out. That said, there were 3 people (of 38) whom I,
> as a non-psychologist, experienced as deeply disturbed in my
> interactions with them (they were "nice" to me, for what that's worth)
> in terms of how they conveyed their stories, the "lack of remorse" or
> "empathy", or other signs of various disturbances. Hating to sound
> judgmental, in these 3 cases I remember thinking "I'm really glad
> you're locked up because you truly come across as deeply disturbed"
> (but I just smiled and thanked them for sharing their stories!).
>
> In closing, I guess I'd say "it's complicated" when we're trying to
> understand "adult behavior," due to the interplay of distal (e.g.,
> childhood experiences) and proximal factors (neighborhoods, racism,
> unemployment, credentials, financial struggles, current relationships,
> etc.) to explain "why" people behave as they do, to say nothing about
> how we then /evaluate/ the behavior from a moral standpoint. On the
> latter point, what we /do /know as one of the few "iron laws of
> sociology"? The greater the social/cultural distance between the
> observer and the individual/group observed, the greater the likelihood
> of our viewing their behavior or even their very existence in a
> negative light. Conversely, we are far more understanding and
> forgiving of our intimates to the point where we deny that they could
> possibly be responsible for "bad" behavior (e.g., "my son would
> /never/ do that - I didn't raise a monster!).
>
> Wishing you all peace, health, and understanding, -joe
>
> Dr. Joseph H. Michalski
>
> King’s University College at Western University
>
> 266 Epworth Avenue, DL-201
>
> London, Ontario, Canada N6A 2M3
>
> Tel: (519) 433-3491
>
> Email: [log in to unmask]
>
> ______________________
>
> /e^i /^π + 1 = 0
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* tree of knowledge system discussion
> <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Lene Rachel Andersen -
> Nordic Bildung / Fremvirke
> <[log in to unmask]>
> *Sent:* Monday, April 27, 2020 11:09 AM
> *To:* [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
> *Subject:* Re: Lockdown protesters resemble “child soldiers” and
> “urban gangs”
>
> Hi Catherine,
>
> Good question, thank you.
>
> There are two sets of issues, the second with two sub-sets of issues:
>
> 1. Things that went wrong in childhood and have lasting consequences
> 2. Things that went wrong in adulthood
> 1. Individual issues
> 2. Societal issues
>
> The 2-2 societal issues must be addressed politically and culturally,
> not as mental health / illness.
>
> / Lene
>
> On 27-04-2020 17:01, Wilson, Katherine Christine - wilso3kc wrote:
>> As I am following this conversation, I find myself a bit confused.
>>
>> I am understanding that people are saying that we should not view
>> mindsets that lead to becoming a child soldier or "social distancing
>> protestor" as stemming from mental illness, but rather from societal
>> inequities. However, are not most mental illnesses often the result
>> of some inequity, trauma, repression, suppression, power dynamic, or
>> developmental challenge due to lack of proper care, education, and
>> access to basic core needs being met? I am not understanding how an
>> individual who becomes borderline or depressed as an adult, after a
>> childhood that involves abuse, rape, poverty, and/or neglect, is
>> different from someone who protests in the streets as a result of job
>> insecurity, xenophobic upbringings, and poor education?
>>
>> where do we draw the line between mental illness and social inequity?
>> I am genuinely a bit stuck here...
>>
>>> On Apr 27, 2020, at 10:11 AM, Zachary Stein <[log in to unmask]
>>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks Lene. Agreed.
>>>
>>> Child soldiers and gang members are to be understood and helped with
>>> compassion and in ways that explicitly address the social, economic,
>>> and political contexts that placed their lives in such turmoil.
>>> Approaching "these people" as if they are mentally ill is the wrong
>>> frame.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>> On Apr 27, 2020, at 9:40 AM, Lene Rachel Andersen - Nordic Bildung
>>>> / Fremvirke <[log in to unmask]
>>>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hello everybody,
>>>>
>>>> I think the best way to fight the idiocy is to produce a stronger
>>>> narrative.
>>>>
>>>> What actually makes America great?
>>>>
>>>> American science, American ingenuity, American medicine, American
>>>> collaboration, American expertise, American health care workers,
>>>> American hardship, American perseverance, American spirit, American
>>>> doctors, American technicians, American nurses, American...
>>>>
>>>> And have somebody whom the Trump segment admires tout that story as
>>>> loudly as possible; addressing anxious people who are
>>>> under-educated, who have lost their livelihood in the globalized
>>>> economy and who react understandably to a situation that leaves
>>>> them powerless as a mental health issue would be an arrogant mistake.
>>>>
>>>> / Lene
>>>>
>>>> On 27-04-2020 15:14, nysa71 wrote:
>>>>> Hi ToK Society,
>>>>>
>>>>> An excellent --- though disturbing --- article where Yale
>>>>> psychiatrist, Brandy Lee, is interviewed:
>>>>>
>>>>> /"A Yale psychiatrist has warned that pro-Trump lockdown
>>>>> protesters, who exhibit similar psychology as 'child
>>>>> soldiers,' could quickly turn into 'armed troops in the
>>>>> streets' if the president loses his re-election bid./
>>>>> /"Dr. Bandy X. Lee, a forensic psychiatrist at the Yale School
>>>>> of Medicine, said the armed protests were a natural evolution
>>>>> of the loyalty President Trump demands from his supporters.
>>>>> Many of these protests have evidently been organized by
>>>>> deep-pocketed groups allied with the president."/
>>>>>
>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.salon.com_2020_04_23_yale-2Dpsychiatrist-2Dbandy-2Dlee-2Dlockdown-2Dprotesters-2Dresemble-2Dchild-2Dsoldiers-2Dand-2Durban-2Dgangs_&d=DwIDaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=zyVJ_CNvPRQQZ0kaoFoX2QLcYgQkk3DzRc4h2y4SxfU&s=qitgGCvaFm1YraCTN3WsCHzUlTUB9nv0DaUaqFnUjtc&e=
>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.salon.com_2020_04_23_yale-2Dpsychiatrist-2Dbandy-2Dlee-2Dlockdown-2Dprotesters-2Dresemble-2Dchild-2Dsoldiers-2Dand-2Durban-2Dgangs_&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=RS9io8Cke8UTz735yUH9toJIraIP4tGQJFXx1Lrp86c&s=x5PVuK1Z2Yt1MDrPIyGseNkQyKdzVElIEKD2hTPs56g&e=>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The mentality of these people should be of deep concern to mental
>>>>> health professionals, and I hope it is of top priority among the
>>>>> mental health community right now.
>>>>>
>>>>> ~ Jason Bessey
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ############################
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