Gregg, regarding your comment about my saying that there's no empiric
evidence for evolution:

*"There is no scientific evidence for Darwinian evolution, yet we hang on
to that theory for dear life, knowing it is illogical and
untestable/unrefutable”  (from Sat 3/9).*



*I think this is basically a ludicrous claim to make. Which means there is
much more to systemic knowledge than empirical evidence alone. There is
interpretation of what the data mean and how to think about it. I don’t
share your interpretations of empirical evidence.  *


Without such data, Creationism/ID and Darwinian evolution are on equal
footing as beliefs. This is why it is necessary to do hypothesis testing
studies to prove/disprove evolution theory. BUT you won't find it in the
standard evolution literature because card-carrying evolutionists won't
violate the tenet that evolution is due to random mutations....given that,
you can't test for causation because there's no context, if you get what I
am saying. But I have done so because I am not an evolutionist. I can't
tell you (but I will) how nasty the Editors of traditional evolution
Journals have been when I have tried to publish in their literature- you're
an idiot, you don't understand evolution, you don't understand science,
etc, etc.


Moreover, I am also violating Ernst Mayr's dictum in 1952 that there is no
connection between the proximate and ultimate causation in evolutionary
biology. His example was migrating birds, which we now know are 'guided' by
the changing wavelength of ambient light affecting the pineal gland,
melatonin, reproductive drive and behavior. Randy Nesse, one of the major
players in Evolutionary Medicine, told me to my face that to connect
proximate and ultimate causation in evolution was unequivocally wrong. j





On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 9:36 AM Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <
[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> John,
>
>
>
>   You bring up Dobzhansky. Great, let’s talk about him. His actual quote
> was “Nothing in biology makes sense except in light of evolution
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.jstor.org_stable_4444260-3Fseq-3D5-23metadata-5Finfo-5Ftab-5Fcontents&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=e89EnDHhBQreRHB2ubtDu0oRLX9oBIgq9UkrGKzZAto&s=HtWbO_LZ4G-KopgL4re-7mBCKH5cyxMkVJjfTLy3Fb4&e=>.”
> And he based that claim on the remarkable synthesis of Darwinian natural
> selection and molecular genetics. So, you are arguing that we should listen
> to Dobzhansky? And yet, you also write:
>
> "There is no scientific evidence for Darwinian evolution, yet we hang on
> to that theory for dear life, knowing it is illogical and
> untestable/unrefutable”  (from Sat 3/9).
>
>
>
> I think this is basically a ludicrous claim to make. Which means there is
> much more to systemic knowledge than empirical evidence alone. There is
> interpretation of what the data mean and how to think about it. I don’t
> share your interpretations of empirical evidence.
>
>
>
> Here is how I make sense of the puzzle:
>
>
>
> Natural selection operating on genetic combinations is obviously key.
> However, I do consider it to be significantly incomplete. I think there is
> much more capacity for organisms to evolve into niches than standard
> genetic mutation theory allows. The brings in epigenetics (see my blog on
> this here
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.psychologytoday.com_intl_blog_theory-2Dknowledge_201312_revolution-2Din-2Devolution-2Dreturn-2Dlamarck&d=DwMFAg&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=fAX9xBiqC7Jpwi5bcf42BpKio-w7hhMYFN9VxTHChls&m=kdyPU7LtUT84oPwjve6sOKG09VL-G0yH2TDY2YlWLEs&s=VHEcJA2sEVcOIDyYf1DC3FMjM1PbfKxxxld0WReVCbc&e=>).
> In addition, I agree with you that cell theory is not properly integrated
> with the modern synthesis. So, I am with you the modern synthesis needs a
> significant Newton-into-Einstein overhaul. And I think you are “seer” in
> this regard.
>
>
>
> But, John, your knowledge of philosophy and big picture synthetic views of
> psychology and the social sciences, well, quite limited in many ways. So, I
> embrace the “Torday line” which to me incorporates your findings and
> explains your vision from my vantage point.
>
>
>
> Bottom line: We have different interpretations of data and their
> implications and different ways to make sense of the world we find
> ourselves in. Lots of compatibility, but also some incommensurability.
> Let’s just agree to disagree and move on, shall we? Or you and I can back
> channel if you want.
>
>
>
> Best,
> Gregg
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* tree of knowledge system discussion <
> [log in to unmask]> *On Behalf Of *JOHN TORDAY
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 12, 2019 9:21 AM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Subject:* Re: In Need of a Clear Language System
>
>
>
> Dear ToKers, the great debacles of science like Heliocentrism, Microbe
> Theory, Vitalism, DNA as the mechanism of inheritance, The Big Bang, have
> all been resolved by experimental evidence. Where is the experimental
> evidence for the ToK/UTUA? I ask because this is the challenge for me,
> which I have offered to resolve by interjecting the experimenal evidence
> into Gregg's ToK as the Joint Points. He chooses to reject that out of hand
> as being a different systematic approach to the ToK. I dispute that, and in
> my defense I will cite Theodosius Dobzhansky, the pre-eminent evolutionist,
> who said that 'evolution is all of biology', psychology being a subset of
> biology. If my take on evolution is unacceptable, then some other body of
> experimental data must be offered in order to resolve this debate. I offer
> this perspective in the spirit of constructive debate....John
>
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 5:58 AM Joseph Michalski <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Thanks Brent and Gregg for these additional comments and clarifications. I
> find the Canonizer platform incredibly helpful and a great mechanism for
> comparing arguments and theoretical perspectives, especially since we have
> much more limited opportunities in the academic world through our
> traditional publication processes. Especially helpful for people to locate
> themselves vis-a-vis others in a constructive fashion. Continued success
> Brent,
>
>
>
> -Joe
>
>
>
> Dr. Joseph H. Michalski
>
> Associate Academic Dean
>
> King’s University College at Western University
>
> 266 Epworth Avenue
>
> London, Ontario, Canada  N6A 2M3
>
> Tel: (519) 433-3491
>
> Fax: (519) 963-1263
>
> Email: [log in to unmask]
>
> ______________________
>
> *ei*π + 1 = 0
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* tree of knowledge system discussion <
> [log in to unmask]> on behalf of Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <
> [log in to unmask]>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 12, 2019 7:20 AM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Subject:* Re: In Need of a Clear Language System
>
>
>
> Thanks for this wonderful description, Brent.
>
>
>
> As my slides suggested, I am definitely in the Representational Qualia
> Theory camp. It is interesting because after that, I am not sure where to
> place myself. (I joined and put myself there).
>
>
>
> That means that with canonizer I can see clearly where my approach falls
> relative to others, which is super helpful. I almost went with biological
> naturalism via John Searle. However, I don’t quite share his language. I
> think that the next “breakdown” point I would argue for is “Property
> Quadism” to contrast with property dualism. Property dualism goes under
> mind-brain identity. I disagree with that language system, because I make
> very clear distinctions between mind (the mind) and consciousness. Property
> quadism stems from the ToK and the claim that, ontologically, there are
> four dimensions of behavioral complexity (Matter, Life, Mind, and Culture)
> that characterize the behavioral patterns of objects, organisms, animals,
> and persons.
>
>
>
> Thus, under RQT I would add UTUA Theory of Knowledge…
>
>
>
> Fascinating.
>
>
> Best,
>
> Gregg
>
>
>
> *From:* tree of knowledge system discussion <
> [log in to unmask]> *On Behalf Of *Brent Allsop
> *Sent:* Monday, March 11, 2019 11:09 PM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Subject:* Re: In Need of a Clear Language System
>
>
>
> Hi Mark,
>
>
>
> You seem to not know much about how canonizer works, what it is, or what
> it has already accomplished.
>
>
>
> You indicated how “Crowd Sourcing” is not the source to “wisdom” or
> “understanding” and that the crowd is “clueless”.  I agree with you, that
> currently the crowd is quite clueless.  The only reason we want to measure
> this cluelessness, using the default popular consensus canonizer algorithm,
> is so we can compare this to the “expert consensus” as measured by expert
> canonizer algorithms.  What you can measure, will improve.  This allows the
> experts to better find out what the popular consensus is.  Knowing where
> the crowd is mistaken and why, they can then better form the expert
> consensus in a way that the crowd can better keep up.  One of many ways
> this canonization process amplifies the wisdom of the previously,
> clueless.  For example, global warming experts will finally be able to know
> what the crowd believes, and why.  And they will be able to measure which
> arguments better convince the crowd…  Again, amplifying the wisdom of the
> crowd.
>
>
>
> Before Canonizer.com existed, many of the notes groups and forums  I
> participated in, even the philosophy ones, would try to shame people into
> not bringing up the topic of “qualia”, knowing that this would just lead to
> a shouting match, where no matter what you referenced from what was coming
> out of the Ivory Tower and Peer reviewed journals, someone else would throw
> an equally ivory towers reference claiming it was “fake news”.  The same
> old yelling match, and reference throwing at each other never made any
> progress, and ultimately one side or the other would accuse the other of
> being Nazis.  The stuff being published in peer reviewed journals is no
> different.  This fear and loathing everyone has of even bring up the topic
> of qualia, as a result of all this, is the biggest reason the crowd is so
> clueless.  Even many neural experimentalist fear bringing up the word
> qualia.  If they try to consult the peer review journals on this, it is all
> junk, so they just give up after a few years.  Jack Galant is a very good
> example of exactly this.
>
>
>
> Now, when you go into forums, where people know what canonizer.com
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__canonizer.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=6C0_mIxyrkfL1lP2qpsJwkrCQcZIPtoU5JEzuyMJ3G8&s=EgzHE7goOJoGo2CusKHtbPyYH14YRf_dZoT-2a-EWhg&e=>
> is, everything has changed dramatically.  Talking about qualia is now fun.
> Anyone that brings up qualia, now, is quickly met with people pointing to
> links, describing the state of the art of emerging expert consensus camps
> held by the participants in the forums.  Instead of all the repeated old
> arguments, on the occasion someone does bring a new argument or scientific
> results to the conversation that is not yet canonized, you canonize that
> new argument.  You can measure the quality of such arguments and evidence
> by how many people they convert.  We are already seeing this.  Again, that
> which you measure, improves the wisdom of the crowd.  These kinds of
> conversations, in forums, are now very fun, and you see things start to
> progress at an extraordinary rate, instead of being stuck on the same old
> stupid arguments, over and over again.  We even had a high school student
> come to canonizer.com
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__canonizer.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=6C0_mIxyrkfL1lP2qpsJwkrCQcZIPtoU5JEzuyMJ3G8&s=EgzHE7goOJoGo2CusKHtbPyYH14YRf_dZoT-2a-EWhg&e=>,
> clearly initially, quite naive about many of the good arguments and
> theories.  Within a few months, since he was able to ignore all the old
> stuff by all the old experts taught in college classes, which most experts
> now agree have been falsified, he was competing with PhDs that had been
> working and publishing in the field for years with his contributions.
>
>
>
> There are also LOTS of people that have what they believe to be the
> “Solution” to the hard problem, which they can’t get published, for lots of
> various reasons, including the fact that many of the ideas look really
> crazy, and have nothing to do with the real “hard problem”.  These kinds of
> people flock to canonizer.com
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__canonizer.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=6C0_mIxyrkfL1lP2qpsJwkrCQcZIPtoU5JEzuyMJ3G8&s=EgzHE7goOJoGo2CusKHtbPyYH14YRf_dZoT-2a-EWhg&e=>,
> because it is finally a place where they can, not just publish their work
> they can canonize it, and start finding other people that agree with them,
> building consensus around their best ideas, and abandoning the bad ones.
>
>
>
> Now that canonizer has been around, and we’ve been doing the consciousness
> consensus project for more than 10 years we’ve made a real breakthrough.
> The “Representational Qualia Theory
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__canonizer.com_topic_88-2DRepresentational-2DQualia_6-3F&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=6C0_mIxyrkfL1lP2qpsJwkrCQcZIPtoU5JEzuyMJ3G8&s=0RNGuwEW1JQDWa-AcIzsas_lm9KtG-on5irO0fJ8rwA&e=>”,
> which has almost unanimous expert consensus, is not only proving how much
> consensus is possible in this field, it is the real solution to bridging
> the explanatory gap, describing a real way to approach the qualitative
> nature of consciousness scientifically.
>
>
>
> The Ivory tower and peer reviewed journal industry has been struggling
> with this so called “hard problem’, for hundreds of years. About all
> they’ve given anyone, is that there is no consensus on anything.  Only the
> bad arguments are the ones that get so often bleated, by the polarized
> herding crowd.  Now, with Canonizer, no more.
>
>
>
> You also said: “You don't get to redefine "canon."  The Church owns the
> word.”
>
> Which is also incorrect.  The domain name “canonizer.com
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__canonizer.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=6C0_mIxyrkfL1lP2qpsJwkrCQcZIPtoU5JEzuyMJ3G8&s=EgzHE7goOJoGo2CusKHtbPyYH14YRf_dZoT-2a-EWhg&e=>”
> is owned by Canonizer.com LLC, and nobody could get a copyright on a word
> like that.  We're using it quite successfully already.
>
>
>
> Brent
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 11:44 AM Mark Stahlman <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> Brent:
>
> Yes, I know.  As a result, you will fail.  Pick a different name . . . <g>
>
> "Crowd Sourcing" is a fad that people increasingly recognize is *not*
> the source to "wisdom."  It certainly has its purposes -- like if
> you're trying to build "consensus" -- but "understanding" isn't one of
> them.
>
> Most people have no clue what is going on -- for good reason.  You
> *really* only need to understand something because you are
> "responsible" for the outcome.  That means yourself, your family, your
> job -- that's it.  Enough.  No more.
>
> The notion that a group of people without that direct engagement with
> the subject-at-hand should have something "intelligent" to say is
> idiotic.  They never will and, indeed, they really shouldn't.
>
> President of the US?  Negotiations with North Korea?  None of my
> business.  Opinions?  Don't have one.  Stick your opinion survey where
> the sun doesn't shine (as more-and-more people are, in fact, telling
> the pollster)  . . . !!
>
> "Democracy" -- particularly of the *direct* sort -- is a hoax.  I know
> some of the people who spread this idea, including those who did it to
> the "shop floor" and they were quite idealistic about it.  They also
> thought we should all live our lives like the Aboriginals.  Huddled
> around the fire, starring at the flickering images on the tent wall.
> Without literacy.  Rousseau would have liked it, I suspect.
>
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikipedia.org_wiki_Fred-5FEmery&d=DwIDaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=19-AJ6b2uPtOcvH5PZ8v3aoWOBbQtP-h_fMqr6Mdg9k&s=Str2nuv8x8KlwqngwxVOqJvsjde8rsPQ0zWS5JbgpEA&e=
>
> You don't get to redefine "canon."  The Church owns the word.  The
> environment can do that -- documenting which, btw, is the whole point
> of the Oxford English Dictionary -- but you can't.
>
> So don't even try (unless you want to learn a lesson that you have
> already been taught) . . . <g>
>
> Mark
>
> Quoting Brent Allsop <[log in to unmask]>:
>
> > Hi Mark,
> >
> >
> >
> > We at canonizer.com
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__canonizer.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=6C0_mIxyrkfL1lP2qpsJwkrCQcZIPtoU5JEzuyMJ3G8&s=EgzHE7goOJoGo2CusKHtbPyYH14YRf_dZoT-2a-EWhg&e=>
> are using and defining canonize in a new way, or giving
> > it a new, or additional definition.
> >
> >
> >
> > Where as the traditional meaning is based on a hierarchy or
> “ecclesiastical
> > definition” our meaning is simply crowd sourced or built by consensus.
> > Instead of top down, it is bottom up.  Instead of dictated from above, it
> > is self-organized, bottom up.
> >
> >
> >
> > Where the traditional usage is based on tradition, our usage is dynamic,
> > and always changing.  It is a measure of the state of the art of a
> standard
> > scientific consensus, theory, and belief.
> >
> >
> >
> > It is simply what the participants build consensus around what they want,
> > and the current state of the art of the best terminology we chose to use.
> >
> >
> >
> > At canonizer.com
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__canonizer.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=6C0_mIxyrkfL1lP2qpsJwkrCQcZIPtoU5JEzuyMJ3G8&s=EgzHE7goOJoGo2CusKHtbPyYH14YRf_dZoT-2a-EWhg&e=>,
> to “canonize” something, is to find out, concisely and
> > quantitatively, what everyone truly wants or believes.  Then once that is
> > known, to get it all, for everyone.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 9:13 AM Mark Stahlman <[log in to unmask]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> John/Gregg:
> >>
> >> This is *classic* . . . !!
> >>
> >> John is PRINT and Gregg is ELECTRIC.  Two different "sensibilities."
> >> How could they possibly "agree" on anything . . . ??
> >>
> >> The irony, of course, is that this is only happening because they are
> >> *both* now obsolete.  Both distantly in the "rear-view mirror."  Both
> >> looking backwards.
> >>
> >>  From an ELECTRIC standpoint, we all have different "language
> >> systems."  From a PRINT standpoint, we can actually try to sort all
> >> this out -- "scientifically."
> >>
> >> In both cases, the underlying "biases" are masked.  Neither
> >> standpoints recognizes that fundamentally different
> >> psycho-technological environments are at work.  And neither will those
> >> who participate in the "Canonizer" game.
> >>
> >> Crucially, neither wants to admit that DIGITAL brings a completely
> >> different sensibility to the "debate."
> >>
> >> Yes, this is classic . . . <g>
> >>
> >> Mark
> >>
> >> P.S. The irony is that a "Canon" isn't either PRINT or ELECTRIC.  And
> >> it cannot be decided by a "vote."  It is SCRIBAL -- as in "Canon Law."
> >>   What a world of surprises awaits us all.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikipedia.org_wiki_Canon-5Flaw&d=DwIBaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=liZu1PIudVuCGmjsE9GbqAYr0y2OqjrUURySMh9-XlQ&s=6LaimFVFrpAJE-fcNiRoxup3P4z-C3rLwB9vJpzG8jg&e=
> >>
> >> ############################
> >>
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> >>
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