Very cool, Lee. Thanks for sharing that diagram.
For me, consciousness, specifically experiential consciousness, sentience<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentience#:~:text=Sentience%20is%20the%20capacity%20to,ability%20to%20feel%20(sentience).> or the capacity for mental experience/qualia (which is not the same as SELF-consciousness), likely emerges shortly after the Cambrian explosion, and the evolution of operant behavior patterns. These two books (here<https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/evolution-sensitive-soul> and here<https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/ancient-origins-consciousness>) offer more detailed justifications for that location.
That dimension was not super well delineated in your diagram.
I think the argument is relatively strong for vertebrates like fish, but that question remains open, and there are arguments that only birds and mammals show the kind of brain activity that would offer the correlate signatures of subjective experience.
I am agnostic about things like insects, as this illustration notes:
[cid:image003.png@01D69257.BD0AA5D0]
Is a praying mantis a “zombie”? I would not be surprised either way.
Note, that as John Vervaeke and I are unpacking in our Worldknot series, there are many facets to sentience/phenomenology that need to be unpacked and what we generally experience as a singular light coming on is likely a layering of generative functions…
Best,
Gregg
From: tree of knowledge system discussion <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Leland Beaumont
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2020 9:30 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Sam Harris Six Minute Clip
(I’m just now catching up to this thread)
A few years ago I explored the idea of “the evolution of emergence” and created this diagram: https://archive.org/details/PrintEmergence<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__archive.org_details_PrintEmergence&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=LHTwMXMdrbDhjwVqjJzgQWzkafQIfms_uiXylfIPcfk&s=tTOWPOZSUSnOnBXagF1G_6Wu6P4SLyvvfiEiaK6Pv8w&e=>
Where do you estimate consciousness emerges in this diagram?
Thanks
Lee Beaumont
From: tree of knowledge system discussion <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> On Behalf Of Nicholas Lattanzio
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2020 9:08 AM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Sam Harris Six Minute Clip
James,
I too would love to participate in this podcast idea. I think clarifying this Big Shift and cultivating a higher level of consciousness which enables more value-latent cultural functioning is the core of this society (TOK listserv), we can do this in so many ways but right action is key at this juncture, so count me in.
Regards,
Nicholas G. Lattanzio, Psy.D.
On Tue, Sep 22, 2020, 4:44 PM James Lyons-Weiler <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
A proposal:
I sense a Big Shift underway here. Reaching the masses will take consistent effort.
I'd like to propose a four-to-six person revolving Intentional Consciousness Expansion
podcast, say, 2 hrs every 2 weeks. Four core people on the screen at once, sometimes 1 or 2 more.
My platform can host any number of podcasts (via WWDNYK - What We Do Not Yet Know) - studios.
No fee, but we'll pitch http://patreon.com/WWDNYK<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__patreon.com_WWDNYK&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=VZJtLcpiYTu1sntQ3v3BVKp8kjAFthRo5p03dgCAfl8&s=ht13a2TaWUR8pHErfx4YopbzDYV9wm_DbC-J7MxJYPc&e=> to help keep to lights on.
If we start with four core people we can occasionally add a few more. Round-robin discussion
on the main topic of the day. And related issues. This community can make a list of topics and well go at them.
Society's hurting, let's put a little ICE on it. Call it ICE. or Big Shift. Your call on the name of the podcast,
I'd be happy to host a few to work out the kinks and then fall into the background and re-emerge if I think I have
something worth adding.
I cannot believe I'm adding more to my calendar, but I have a sense this is a good thing.
Let me know!
JLW
On Tue, Sep 22, 2020 at 5:11 PM Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
Thank you for this comment, Manuel. I very much agree that one of the keys that was overlooked is the relationship between language, self-consciousness adds key confusions. I also wish he was clear that the only clear examples of consciousness we have are things that are first alive, so it really is more how Matter becomes Life becomes conscious.
Also, let me extend a warm welcome to Manuel Manga, as he recently joined the list. Manuel and I had a truly wonderful conversation the other week. He has a magnificent and crucial vision for “evolutionary leadership<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__evolutionleader.com_pages_manuel-2Dmanga_&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=VZJtLcpiYTu1sntQ3v3BVKp8kjAFthRo5p03dgCAfl8&s=HwG5mt4DrdLeucFE8trq4pm5tJfMlovGdzJeJbkZjdE&e=>”, which is desperately needed in this time between worlds. His humanistic/spiritual/scientific vision is very congruent with the ToK System and larger Unified Theory Of Knowledge and I am thrilled he has joined our community. It is worth noting that he worked with Humberto Maturana, who, along with Francisco Valera. wrote the ground breaking book, The Tree of Knowledge: The Biological Roots of Human Understanding<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.amazon.com_Tree-2DKnowledge-2DBiological-2DRoots-2DUnderstanding_dp_0877736421&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=VZJtLcpiYTu1sntQ3v3BVKp8kjAFthRo5p03dgCAfl8&s=1Doxw75yKx4ABtBbWTBKk36uJX5mv9wRsGJ-IqH5FKY&e=>. My naming my system the Tree of Knowledge in the 2000s was, somewhat embarrassingly, completely coincidental. If I had done a better job in my literature review, I would have come across there work. Nonetheless, it was very affirming to read as it was a brilliant exposition that offered one of the most advanced, consilient pictures of human knowledge that had been offered to date.
I look forward to future conversations and possible collaborations.
Best,
Gregg
From: tree of knowledge system discussion <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> On Behalf Of Manuel Manga
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2020 3:15 PM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Sam Harris Six Minute Clip
Hi Folks,
I agree that matter gives rise to consciousness. physics to chemistry to biology to brain, to mind, to language. to me language is key to self and consciousness.
i wish that harris and others spent less time worrying about robots, the matrix and ai, and he would focused more on how we can transform-evolve our minds- consciousness-meta-narratives from a destructive species toward a more sustainable-ethical- and flourishing species.
we are heading toward some big crisis, so let's be part academics-part evolutionary leaders.
best,
manuel manga
On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 6:33 AM Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
Hi Folks,
I thought this 6 minute clip on consciousness was worthwhile:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpaDlIlqygE<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtube.com_watch-3Fv-3DLpaDlIlqygE&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=2FLqeiUFHf77Lo3raMI1QZAmIRjUxqXYC5HlbkqP5Ro&s=t49LFwBP5LSG1xmnqwKZ3-LKlRH7a_1qhPnJ-L5hRQc&e=>
Of course, with the BM3 solution, we can make significant advances in the “descriptive metaphysical system” that surrounds this set of claims.
Also, I was thinking it might be helpful to point out how I would frame his point about consciousness being the only thing we can know for certain. The UTOK would say that a consciousness event is the intersection of the ontic reality of being, epistemology, and ontology. That is, whatever you are experiencing is real in-and-of-itself, is the product of a witnessing experiencing functioning that is an ontological fundamental reality.
I think Rob Scott might put it as the moment of “is-ness”. Is that fair, Rob?
Best,
Gregg
___________________________________________
Gregg Henriques, Ph.D.
Professor
Department of Graduate Psychology
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MSC 7401
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(540) 568-7857 (phone)
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Be that which enhances dignity and well-being with integrity.
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