Bruce I know you have done a lot of work with this in particular - I have
stayed clear from it as I have had horrible insomnia for years which
acupuncture thankfully fixed, clear light is enough for me - can you maybe
describe some of your experiences?


On Fri, Mar 11, 2022 at 1:35 PM Bruce Alderman <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> *CAUTION: *This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click links
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> safe.
> ------------------------------
> Yes, that is the teacher at whose house I was living.
>
> On Fri, Mar 11, 2022 at 10:33 AM Tim Pickerill <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
>> *CAUTION: *This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click links
>> or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is
>> safe.
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.abebooks.com_products_isbn_9781559391016-3Fcm-5Fsp-3Dbdp-2D-5F-2DISBN13-2D-5F-2DPLP&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ng-6cDST9J6SlVayLBlKZXeT2DxJfMB-hAkzlzXbH04&s=_QrTKLu4jjkRzzVVVEFcRG5deCQNMzlZUbRagbMsL9A&e= 
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.abebooks.com_products_isbn_9781559391016-3Fcm-5Fsp-3Dbdp-2D-5F-2DISBN13-2D-5F-2DPLP&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=-TkHvglgw6YzTaDdBiDB_l_JL6uooEt6k8Gxng1arWw&s=NP4Zxvz8zQ6_S_2LJUmZT0yhheMhZk-h569Dt-H0MrE&e=>
>>
>> I very much recommend this book which describes the practice- basically
>> what you described but formalized as a practice.
>> T
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 11, 2022 at 12:17 PM Tim Pickerill <[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Very cool Nick, I would recommend checking out Tibetan teachings on
>>> this. As Bruce described there are well developed practices for this which
>>> I do not believe you need to belong to a sect in order to practice.
>>> Belonging to the Karma Kadgu school I do Clear Light practice of the 15th
>>> Karmapa which is different but adjacent. Before going to sleep you embody
>>> light in your heart chakra and hold that in any waking or lucid states that
>>> may arise. Coming to a lucid state as light/conscious awareness is very
>>> interesting and points to what you speak of - base mind.
>>>
>>> Good luck in your mind travels
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 11, 2022 at 11:01 AM Bruce Alderman <[log in to unmask]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> *CAUTION: *This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click
>>>> links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the
>>>> content is safe.
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> Nicholas, very interesting.  Thanks for sharing this here.  I'm a
>>>> little skeptical of the source or guide for this particular meditation, but
>>>> not of your experiences.  I studied dream and sleep yoga for several years
>>>> while living at a Tibetan lama's house, and recognize - not exactly in
>>>> form, but in spirit and in some of the phenomenal and processual
>>>> particulars - the territory you are describing.
>>>>
>>>> Tibetan tradition differentiates between samsaric dreams, dreams of
>>>> clarity, and clear light dreams.  Samsaric dreams, as you can imagine, are
>>>> dreams driven by past experiences and our emotional reactions to them, our
>>>> fixations, etc.  Dreams of clarity are dreams where some deeper wisdom
>>>> shines through, where we receive some genuine spiritual insight, some
>>>> existential and moral clarity.  They are "teaching dreams" or "initiatory
>>>> dreams" -- Big Dreams, in Jung's sense.  And dreams of clear light are
>>>> generally lucid dreams, but not just lucid in the sense of recognizing we
>>>> are dreaming; they may also involve the recognition of awareness itself, of
>>>> the base of awareness.  In sleep yoga, you practice the (reflexivie)
>>>> recognition of base awareness in the Delta state, where there is typically
>>>> no thought or other content present.  The 'clear light' here is not a
>>>> brilliant (visual) white light, of course, but the simple clarity of
>>>> awareness itself.
>>>>
>>>> The transition from a surface-content orientation, a phenomenal
>>>> orientation, to the 'causal emptiness' of a content-free Delta state can
>>>> (for me also) feel like a "sucking into" or "sucking back into."
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Mar 11, 2022 at 6:49 AM Nicholas Lattanzio <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> *CAUTION: *This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click
>>>>> links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the
>>>>> content is safe.
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>> Good morning fellow UTOKers,
>>>>>
>>>>> I just wanted to share a powerful experience I had unintentionally
>>>>> while doing one of those odd Joe Dispenza meditations (which last like 3
>>>>> hours typically). It was a very hybrid meditation, starting with Dispenza
>>>>> orienting us towards different energy centers in the body and trying to
>>>>> experience them simultaneously (something I've always struggled with since
>>>>> I tend to shift directly into a more panoramic awareness).
>>>>>
>>>>> So as I was doing this I began to fall asleep, which will happen time
>>>>> to time for any regular meditator even after years of practice, and I would
>>>>> do the routine zazen-esque redirecting of my attention whenever I noticed I
>>>>> was nodding off (very much like when we seem to "jerk ourselves" awake when
>>>>> falling asleep in your leisure spot). As this deepened, probably about
>>>>> 90-120min into the meditation, there was a strong detachment wherein my
>>>>> visual field seemed to shrink away like I was being pulled back into the
>>>>> Isness 'behind the eyes,' which is different than self-abidance or resting
>>>>> as nondual awareness- this was closer to an "encounter with the void."
>>>>>
>>>>> Although my eyes were closed, I still had a visual field, and aside
>>>>> from my visual snow that field was empty until I 'got sucked back.'
>>>>> Suddenly I started to see images, and it was an experience where the empty
>>>>> field seemed to flip (perceptually it was literally like the nothing
>>>>> flipped over to something like flipping a coin), and I was watching images
>>>>> play like a movie across a portion of my visual field (the part that I had
>>>>> been sucked back from). Though I was not thinking, I was still there. I
>>>>> ended up nodding off even in that state and went into the images that I am
>>>>> convinced now we're an actual dream, as I began to experience it first
>>>>> hand. This led to a lucid dream realization (a very rare occurrence for
>>>>> me), and upon realizing I was dreaming I was sucked back out into the
>>>>> space.
>>>>>
>>>>> This happened 2 or 3 times before I went to the space again and either
>>>>> actually fell asleep or shifted back to the meditation (I have no way of
>>>>> knowing if I actually passed out or not since I wasn't keeping time, but
>>>>> when I came back to the meditation there was about 30min left so it
>>>>> couldn't have been long).
>>>>>
>>>>> Having practiced self-inquiry for years now I was no stranger to the
>>>>> state of no-self, total deidentification with content, which was the space
>>>>> I was being sucked back to. I say this because after switching out of the
>>>>> dream I had absolutely no idea who I was, and I for sure was not dreaming
>>>>> that I was myself, I was a different race and in the dream I knew a
>>>>> different name. Being sucked back I was still able to observe the dream and
>>>>> when going back in would pick it up as if I was running into the the screen
>>>>> of a movie to join the actual movie and absorb into the screen.
>>>>>
>>>>> The usefulness of this relates directly to nondual awareness (no
>>>>> self), and has relevance for the ToK System in particular. What happened
>>>>> here is sleep meditation, a very advanced and not well known meditation
>>>>> wherein the meditator allows the body to fall asleep and remains as the
>>>>> witness throughout sleep. Sleep meditation is almost impossible to look up
>>>>> online, all you'll really find is guided meditations to help you sleep and
>>>>> similar minor cultural appropriations of meditation, but it is a nondual
>>>>> practice and is common in several Hindu and some Buddhist schools.
>>>>>
>>>>> The relevance for ToK System is that this was a first-person
>>>>> experience of what can be said to be at least the base of Mind, as nondual
>>>>> awareness precedes even consciousness and certainly identification
>>>>> (Culture). And, though anecdotal, this experience is entirely consistent
>>>>> with research on nondual awareness as underlying any content or phenomenon
>>>>> regardless of their presence (with the exception that my brain wasn't being
>>>>> imaged). I was deep in a state of wakefulness for at least most of the
>>>>> meditation itself, suggesting alpha waves predominating early, the periods
>>>>> wherein I was watching the dream "flip" on and off strongly suggest theta
>>>>> waves were increasingly present, I don't believe I reached deep sleep/delta
>>>>> wave sleep, despite apparent REM-phases, so if there were Delta waves I was
>>>>> present with them, as I definitely did not awaken from a deep sleep at any
>>>>> point in this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thought it would be interesting to share, this is right on the line
>>>>> between 1st and 3rd person empiricisms. Would love to hear what people have
>>>>> to say, even of you're skeptical of my experience.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Nicholas G. Lattanzio, Psy.D.
>>>>> ############################
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>> ############################
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>>> --
>>>
>>> Timothy Rollin Pickerill
>>> Business - https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.AudioVideoArts.com&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ng-6cDST9J6SlVayLBlKZXeT2DxJfMB-hAkzlzXbH04&s=XDm_78F_tdA1GK4mOWYWORJ0fwCPigff3pZfdtcq_do&e= 
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.AudioVideoArts.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=-TkHvglgw6YzTaDdBiDB_l_JL6uooEt6k8Gxng1arWw&s=J5655qIBk0fvbfVWYvW4VlkCFPB5TXnsIEUdTWf0x8o&e=>
>>> /
>>> Photography - https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__instagram.com_pickerillphotography_&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ng-6cDST9J6SlVayLBlKZXeT2DxJfMB-hAkzlzXbH04&s=144znIAxZa0FAYJlAiBvV9_9SWakgHqCu9zM8FX6ajg&e= 
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__instagram.com_pickerillphotography_&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=-TkHvglgw6YzTaDdBiDB_l_JL6uooEt6k8Gxng1arWw&s=mdoJMKGuN7Zt2Bd1Cg47HEzAR3NM8L9_sbK6jc9j9ic&e=>
>>> Art - https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.TR-2DPickerill.com_&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ng-6cDST9J6SlVayLBlKZXeT2DxJfMB-hAkzlzXbH04&s=VfPGt80_dyPuZ10kfPcXE_dlKJcj3Jo51Z830os2_es&e= 
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.TR-2DPickerill.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=-TkHvglgw6YzTaDdBiDB_l_JL6uooEt6k8Gxng1arWw&s=Ek3RxxP8FgogNQTpts7Ko7-l5Vohcw9KWKtRXkilSL4&e=>
>>> 646-299-4173 (cell)
>>>
>> --
>>
>> Timothy Rollin Pickerill
>> Business - https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.AudioVideoArts.com&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ng-6cDST9J6SlVayLBlKZXeT2DxJfMB-hAkzlzXbH04&s=XDm_78F_tdA1GK4mOWYWORJ0fwCPigff3pZfdtcq_do&e= 
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.AudioVideoArts.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=-TkHvglgw6YzTaDdBiDB_l_JL6uooEt6k8Gxng1arWw&s=J5655qIBk0fvbfVWYvW4VlkCFPB5TXnsIEUdTWf0x8o&e=>
>> /
>> Photography - https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__instagram.com_pickerillphotography_&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ng-6cDST9J6SlVayLBlKZXeT2DxJfMB-hAkzlzXbH04&s=144znIAxZa0FAYJlAiBvV9_9SWakgHqCu9zM8FX6ajg&e= 
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__instagram.com_pickerillphotography_&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=-TkHvglgw6YzTaDdBiDB_l_JL6uooEt6k8Gxng1arWw&s=mdoJMKGuN7Zt2Bd1Cg47HEzAR3NM8L9_sbK6jc9j9ic&e=>
>> Art - https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.TR-2DPickerill.com_&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ng-6cDST9J6SlVayLBlKZXeT2DxJfMB-hAkzlzXbH04&s=VfPGt80_dyPuZ10kfPcXE_dlKJcj3Jo51Z830os2_es&e= 
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.TR-2DPickerill.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=-TkHvglgw6YzTaDdBiDB_l_JL6uooEt6k8Gxng1arWw&s=Ek3RxxP8FgogNQTpts7Ko7-l5Vohcw9KWKtRXkilSL4&e=>
>> 646-299-4173 (cell)
>> ############################
>>
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> ############################
>
> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to:
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-- 

Timothy Rollin Pickerill
Business - https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.AudioVideoArts.com_&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ng-6cDST9J6SlVayLBlKZXeT2DxJfMB-hAkzlzXbH04&s=L0GRhZCHe7yZZdHe25C6lvPLuIp-yUCZquEfklDAl34&e= 
Photography - https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__instagram.com_pickerillphotography_&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ng-6cDST9J6SlVayLBlKZXeT2DxJfMB-hAkzlzXbH04&s=144znIAxZa0FAYJlAiBvV9_9SWakgHqCu9zM8FX6ajg&e= 
Art - https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.TR-2DPickerill.com_&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ng-6cDST9J6SlVayLBlKZXeT2DxJfMB-hAkzlzXbH04&s=VfPGt80_dyPuZ10kfPcXE_dlKJcj3Jo51Z830os2_es&e= 
646-299-4173 (cell)

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