Hi Steve,
100% agree here. For anyone who doubts this or would like to see this played out “in the real” I strongly recommend the movie, Ordinary People<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordinary_People>. For my money, it is Hollywood’s best depiction of psychological dynamics and dysfunction and, if you know the film, you will know that it captures Steve’s point here brilliantly. The main character, Conrad, is the identified patient, but placed in both the context of the family and the culture, one can see that to reduce the cause to him or his symptoms or worst of all his biology is horribly misguided. His depressive shutdown and despair could well be depicted as family conflict internalized.
My basic point is that we need a completely new approach to understanding the mental. We need the ToK to help us see the mental-animal versus cultural-person, then we need philosophical and humanistically informed frames that folks like you and Mike Mascolo bring to begin a dialogue about the hermeneutics of human psychology with all the implications of our socially constructed and value laden justification narratives taken into consideration.
Best,
Gregg
From: tree of knowledge system discussion <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Steven Quackenbush
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2021 10:10 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: TOK: Call for Signatories – Lived Experience of Mental Illness among US/Canadian Psychology Faculty
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Hi Gregg,
I agree with all this on a descriptive plane. From a psychological viewpoint, depressive disorders can indeed be understood as a "maladaptive mental behavioral cycle". But I see this as yet another way of packaging (or narrating) symptoms. The "causal agent" may well be the system in which the person is embedded (family, culture, etc.). This differs from biological illnesses (like the flu), where the causal agent is internal (a virus), even as we recognize that systemic factors influence transmission (e.g., vaccination rates). Family systems theorists speak of the "identified patient", or the symptom bearer within the family. It seems reasonable to suggest that every person diagnosed with a mental illness is effectively an identified patient, bearing the symptoms of their culture. This doesn't mean the pain isn't real. But it doesn mean that there is something deceptive about the "mental illness" lexicon. Those who suffer might do better to blame the world for their problems (even as they take responsibility for shifting behavioral investments).
~ Steve Q.
On Wed, Jul 14, 2021 at 9:52 AM Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
Thanks for everyone’s contributions here.
From my vantage point, this starts with questions about the nature of the mental. As this recent blog post clarifies<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__medium.com_unified-2Dtheory-2Dof-2Dknowledge_a-2Dnew-2Dapproach-2Dto-2Dthe-2Dscience-2Dof-2Dpsychology-2D66f2042e8c32&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=1q9Trvf7T9mo0RjVk_GJgLrbTMaazyk1LaBPgrG4MwA&s=WicR9vcxWeaJVRTR1BRQPfr5hZpuTiq_-c29pADFQ5c&e=>, I am now framing the UTOK psychology as being framed in terms of “mental behaviorism” which is different from the mainstream methodological behaviorism. Mental behaviorism is about developing a psychological science based on the ontology of the mental rather than the epistemological methods of empiricism. Or, more completely, it is about developing a descriptive metaphysical system that is up to the task of effectively framing the ontology of the mental. This is achieved by the ToK System in combination with the iQuad Coin, and recent extensions regarding the Map of Mind1,2,3 and the Periodic table of Behavior.
The Map of Mind and Periodic Table show, beyond any shadow of a doubt, how confused mainstream psychology is regarding its lumping together of behavior and mental processes. With the metaphysical and ontological issues framed, the UTOK then offers JUST, BIT, and the Influence Matrix as “meta-theoretical structures” that enable effective interweaving between and across the various schools of thought.
A coherent mental behavioral ontology allows us to take a different approach to these issues. For example, consider depression. The UTOK allows us to crisply define depression as a state of mental behavioral shutdown, such that there is a fundamental shift in the functional activity away from positive affectivity and engagement and toward negative reactivity, disengagement, and the “sick/defeated” role. This state of shutdown defines what depression is.
We can then ask what is says about “illness”. The Nested Model of Well-being maps the concept of well-being from a UTOK perspective. We can say that depression is clearly a state of low psychological well-being. However, the depression itself may be properly considered in some cases a “depressive reaction” which is a shutdown that follows from injury and the inability of the individual to find effective paths of investment because there are none. When the walls were high, the depressed state of Seligman’s dogs makes functional sense.
At the same time, we can frame mental behaviors in terms of functional forms and, if we are bringing a value based to them, which is what health professions and concepts like illness do (see the Nested Model), we can explore the adaptive versus maladaptive nature of the shutdown. I argue that many depressive shutdowns are well characterized by vicious cycles. The individual is injury, has a depressive reaction that unfortunately produces more difficulty than it solves, which in turn compounds the injury/distress and deepens the shutdown. This maladaptive mental behavioral cycle is the essence of what depressive disorders are from a psychological vantage point.
Finally, depressive states are functionally, sick role states. That is not, in an of itself a disease, but rather a more defensive reaction. Over time, however, or in other cases, this embodied sick role can itself become physiologically problematic. Indeed, many of the problems of the body result from defenses gone awry. I believe that there are melancholic depressive states that should be thought of as depressive disease states.
As this blog series notes<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.psychologytoday.com_us_blog_theory-2Dknowledge_201908_what-2Ddo-2Dif-2Dyou-2Dare-2Ddepressed-2Dguided-2Dtour&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=1q9Trvf7T9mo0RjVk_GJgLrbTMaazyk1LaBPgrG4MwA&s=WItSK1wCqNiwBO4NTFkxZCLRzJ2GxqF8hgaG0-nw-sk&e=>, I have developed a practical, integrative, self-help path to climbing out of depressive caves.
The bottom line is that we need an ontology of the mental that is up to the task such that we can describe it effectively. Then, we need to infuse that with hermeneutic principles, especially in all applied-professional judgement contexts, which exist not to describe change, but to effect change.
With its Unified Theory of psychology and Unified Approach to Psychotherapy, the UTOK is structured to hold this scientific humanistic dialectic.
Best,
Gregg
From: tree of knowledge system discussion <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> On Behalf Of Steven Quackenbush
Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2021 9:43 PM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: TOK: Call for Signatories – Lived Experience of Mental Illness among US/Canadian Psychology Faculty
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Since my last email, a question occurred to me
A few months ago, I tested positive for Covid-19 but experienced no symptoms. [Tests were mandated for anyone working on campus at my institution.]
Here's my question: Would it be possible (in principle) to "test positive" for depression, but experience no symptoms?
The answer is obviously "no", and this has interesting implications. If we consider depression in relation to a "dysfunction" of some sort (i.e., something we could "test positive" for), is the dysfunction a symptom or a cause? Does it lie at the root of the problem, or is it simply the problem considered from another angle (i.e., another way of packaging symptoms)? To see my point, consider what it would mean to speak of a "dysfunction" if there were no symptoms whatsoever. It wouldn't be a dysfunction! Yet, I can test positive for covid and have no symptoms.
On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 8:56 PM Nicholas Lattanzio <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
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I have much much more to say on this when I have more time but suffice it to say for the moment that while the vocabulary used to represent the phenomena of mental illness is clearly insufficient but also the only reason it's being talked about in scientific circles at all. We are simply at a stage in our own cultural sophistication wherein we do not appreciate suffering to the degree we do a "medical" illness, although we are moving towards sufficiency at least. Without the language, which is as specific as it can be in most everything but theoretical underpinnings, suffering of this nature would be left to religion and spirituality, which is obviously not equipped to handle the beast of mental illness on its own.
There are are certainly biological correspondents to mental illness but we lack the technology to actually know what the correspondence is rooted in or what it ultimately "is." What I mean here is that we know major depression often involves regular thoughts of dying, it's a clear marker we can map with neuroimaging that corresponds with the subjective experience of thinking about ending one's life. The problem is we don't know what a thought "is" other than it's correspondent neuro/bio/physiological activity, but it's assuredly reductivist to believe that all a thought "is" is that activity. Once we can better understand a thought the way we understand a medical illness then we'll have a much broader angle from which to view mental illness.
Regards,
Nicholas G. Lattanzio, Psy.D.
On Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 6:49 PM Steven Quackenbush <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
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Hi Gregg, Mike, and Waldemar,
I can't lay claim to a rich understanding of the literature on mental illness, but I'd like to lay out a set of propositions that would seem to pass a "reasonable person" test. I welcome anyone to let me know if I'm off base with any of this:
* A diagnosis of the flu implies the presence of a strain of the flu virus.
* A hypothesis regarding cause is implicit in the diagnosis itself. No virus, no flu.
* If the virus isn't present, a diagnosis of the flu is simply a misdiagnosis.
* If a causal agent is implied by a diagnosis, we can speak meaningfully of the prevalence of the condition. e.g., The following statement is meaningful: "14% of residents in Franklin County have the flu." Of course, the claim could be wrong (due to misdiagnosis), but that's another matter.
* The substantial majority of mental illnesses (including all mood and anxiety-related disorders) are diagnosed based on symptoms rather than cause. The diagnosis does not presume a specific causal agent. Rather, the diagnosis is simply a restatement (or repackaging) of the symptoms.
* To be diagnosed with depression is simply to have a certain set of symptoms. e.g., "depressed mood most of the day, nearly every day, as indicated by either subjective report (e.g., feels sad, empty, hopeless) or observation made by others (e.g., appears tearful)"
* As there is no causal agent implied in the diagnosis, definitional fiat determines prevalence rates. If we define the term "depressed mood" more broadly, prevalence increases.
* This is not an issue with the flu. The causal mechanism is not affected by our (mis)statements regarding symptoms.
* If "definitional fiat determines prevalence rates", this does not mean that suffering isn't real. Quite the contrary. Bereavement is among the most painful conditions a person can experience. But it is not a mental illness.
* We can meaningfully use the term "depression" as shorthand for some of the most painful aspects of the human condition. But the causes may be myriad. This is not the case with the flu (where its the symptoms that are myriad!).
* Waldemar suggests that one possible cause of mental distress is "some sort of mind/brain/body dysfunction". I'm not in a position to disagree. But the dysfunction need not be the root cause.
* For those who speak of "chemical imbalances" (or their analogs), I'd like to ask: "What does a perfectly balanced ('healthy') brain look like? Is it simply the statistically normal brain?"
* Mike suggests that "we need new vocabulary — one that acknowledges the conditions that 'happen' to us, but also does not depict us as merely passive victims to those happenings." I completely agree. I would merely add the Sartrean dictum: "Make something out of what has been made out of you."
~ Steve Q.
On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 5:28 PM Waldemar Schmidt <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
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Valuable comments, Mike and Gregg.
I agree the term “mental illness” leads us into all sorts of thickets and brambles - and, away from understanding.
If I may, I want to share some insight I have acquired - as a someone who is not a psychologist, psychiatrist, psychotherapist, etc.
To wit, there appear to be two major categories of “mental distress” resulting in difficulties:
* Those who have some sort of mind/brain/body dysfunction which has resulted in a mind/brain/body incapable of effective function. These folks are burdened with what is termed psychosis and other entities - such as autism disorder, schizophrenia, major depressive disorder, bipolar disorder, etc. In particular cases this situation may be temporary, such as with intoxications. They can be aided with psychotherapy, training, medications, etc, but cannot (at present) be “cured” of their affliction.
* Those who have a mind/brain/body which is fully capable of effective function - but their application of their mind/brain/body isn’t as effective as it is capable of being. These are folks with what is termed neurosis - notably not a psychosis, although their dysfunctional application of their mind/brain/body may be associated with enough deviation from “normal” as to mimic psychosis. It is possible, at least conceptually, to aid these patients with psychotherapy, training, medications, etc, so that their use of their mind/brain/body is maximized - in this sense, they might be considered “cured."
When we lump both of these categories into “mental disease” we impede meaningful discussion.
The first may be recognized as a true disease, even though etiologies are poorly understood.
The second is not a disease - any more than a sprained ankle is a disease - these are afflictions, by whatever means they arose.
When we lump these two categories we produce a concept devoid of meaning - no wonder there is a funding paucity for related research.
I agree wholeheartedly with the need for an appropriate nosology and lexicon.
So, comments from the peanut gallery!
Best regards,
Waldemar
Waldemar A Schmidt, PhD, MD
(Perseveret et Percipiunt)
503.631.8044
Strive not to be a success, but rather to be of value. (A Einstein)
On Jul 13, 2021, at 7:16 AM, Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
This is an interesting post. And it is from the “empirical science-heavy” list serve I am on. Figured I would share.
Best,
Gregg
From: Society for a Science of Clinical Psychology <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> On Behalf Of Sarah Victor
Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2021 10:01 AM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: [SSCPNET] Call for Signatories – Lived Experience of Mental Illness among US/Canadian Psychology Faculty
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________________________________
Apologies for any cross-postings!
--------------
Dear colleagues,
In early 2021, the largest known survey of mental health difficulties in clinical, counseling, and school psychology programs in the United States and Canada was conducted. Over 2,000 people responded, and the results were striking: 82% reported experiencing mental health difficulties in their lifetime, and 48% reported having been diagnosed with a mental illness. The preprint of the publication presenting these findings is available on OSF here: https://psyarxiv.com/xbfr6/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Fpsyarxiv.com-252Fxbfr6-252F-26data-3D04-257C01-257CSSCPNET-2540listserv.temple.edu-257Cf26f85e4b64a49e04ad808d94606aeae-257C716e81efb52244738e3110bd02ccf6e5-257C0-257C0-257C637617816777629975-257CUnknown-257CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0-253D-257C3000-26sdata-3DrJumOezUqbDUBB3QcElDuTH-252FJwHH-252FfCHVoIn-252Fp7aOrU-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwMF-g&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=wjF8cZoiFchamTuxBdDEmw&m=e1mX9q-E_AvJSmXKTMbrv_yTKVxg91NdsMZFn-P90P4&s=XDkKPqxfNWwwFJ2irT7b1EzDw_6Wn9ebktTu0z9bVG8&e=>. In spite of the obvious relevance of these experiences to the research and clinical efforts in our fields, mental illness among psychology graduate students and faculty has long been under-recognized and subject to implicit and explicit silencing within academic psychology.
Along with the empirical paper linked above, a group of academic psychology faculty have drafted an adjoining commentary, in which the authors (listed below) publicly identify themselves as having lived experience of mental illness, describe the barriers faculty with mental illness face within clinical, counseling, and school psychology programs, and provide a call to action to improve the climate of our fields in supporting trainees and faculty with mental illness. The commentary preprint is available on OSF here: https://psyarxiv.com/ksnfd/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Fpsyarxiv.com-252Fksnfd-252F-26data-3D04-257C01-257CSSCPNET-2540listserv.temple.edu-257Cf26f85e4b64a49e04ad808d94606aeae-257C716e81efb52244738e3110bd02ccf6e5-257C0-257C0-257C637617816777639971-257CUnknown-257CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0-253D-257C3000-26sdata-3DZ2m14goNRp-252BuBgplsev-252F30dI1CefZ-252BGxN7p1NEejcPc-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwMF-g&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=wjF8cZoiFchamTuxBdDEmw&m=e1mX9q-E_AvJSmXKTMbrv_yTKVxg91NdsMZFn-P90P4&s=X6rNei9eISAw6xsDk81TNCmPTuMy3qy_Qtd8ab-HEEA&e=>. We believe that this work is critical to create a more inclusive, diverse, just, and equitable field of applied psychological science.
To that end, the authors are seeking faculty in American and Canadian clinical, counseling, and school psychology doctoral programs and internships who have personal lived experience of mental illness to join the commentary as signatories. The goal is to highlight the tremendous breadth of individuals across career stages who have achieved a faculty position while living with mental illness, and to send a critical message that faculty who have experienced mental illness are valued members of our community.
If you are interested in learning more about this project, you can read more and provide your contact information here: https://tinyurl.com/LEsignatories<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Ftinyurl.com-252FLEsignatories-26data-3D04-257C01-257CSSCPNET-2540listserv.temple.edu-257Cf26f85e4b64a49e04ad808d94606aeae-257C716e81efb52244738e3110bd02ccf6e5-257C0-257C0-257C637617816777639971-257CUnknown-257CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0-253D-257C3000-26sdata-3DH1hx-252BsO8ExLsBsoWF6Uxe-252Bp-252F6j6PM4E89el8s-252FF2PDQ-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwMF-g&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=wjF8cZoiFchamTuxBdDEmw&m=e1mX9q-E_AvJSmXKTMbrv_yTKVxg91NdsMZFn-P90P4&s=MiZYbcFuzXQ7hNHLY1rubqinU09UhPXqntyc59DMOhQ&e=>. Please note that all individuals who complete the survey will be contacted prior to submission of the signatories list, to re-confirm interest and willingness to be listed, whether in an identifiable or anonymous way. For further questions about the project, please contact Dr. Sarah Victor, Assistant Professor at Texas Tech University, [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>.
If you know of others who may be interested in becoming involved with this project, please feel free to forward this information to them as well.
Sincerely,
Dr. Sarah Victor, Assistant Professor, Texas Tech University
Dr. Jessica Schleider, Assistant Professor, Stony Brook University
Dr. Brooke Ammerman, Assistant Professor, University of Notre Dame
Dr. Daniel Bradford, Assistant Professor, Oregon State University (fall 2021)
Andrew Devendorf, Graduate Student, University of South Florida
Dr. Lisa Gunaydin, Assistant Professor, University of California San Francisco
Dr. Lauren Hallion, Assistant Professor, University of Pittsburgh
Dr. Erin Kaufman, Assistant Professor, University of Western Ontario
Dr. Stephen Lewis, Associate Professor, University of Guelph
Dese’Rae L. Stage, Graduate Student, Temple University
---------
Sarah E. Victor, PhD
Assistant Professor of Psychological Sciences
Texas Tech University
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