Hi Greg and all. Who this is a tough one. Actually not so tough. On the
question of this is like black physics. No. A fundamental problem with
psychology has been its difficult relation to culture. Psychology has often
seen itself as trying to understand the mechanisms of the Mind on the one
hand and then culture on the other. In this way of thinking culture becomes
a variable. It is something to manipulate to see what its effect is on the
individual person for the individual mind. The individual mind is one thing
it's Universal Etc and culture is another thing if maybe variable and maybe
differences between cultures or not.

This is a problem. Culture is not a mere variable. Culture is part and
parcel of what it means to be human. There is not the mind and then also
culture. Mind and culture make each other up. If that is so studying
culture is not some adjunct to psychology it is for most it is part of the
very process of psychology. And if that is true it becomes very important
to talk about and study the different ways in which different cultures
create different forms of minding if you will different mentalities. This
makes it quite coherent to talk about black psychology or Asian psychology
or Etc.

There are indeed social constructionist views that embrace the idea of
indigenous psychologies. Three of these psychologists make sense. Speak of
Indian psychology as in India. Indian psychology has an entire way of
parsing the psychological world that is similar in some ways but also very
different from the Western ways of doing. We can learn a lot from them and
they can learn a lot from us perhaps. But there is not psychology on the
one hand say Western psychology on the other end and then also Indian
psychology or Indian indigenous psychology that would be to marginalize the
Indian way of thinking. We need these indigenous psychology's it seems to
me that we need to have a conversation amongst them and between them in
order to make up the whole of psychology.

And this way it seems to me that a black psychology would not be an
alternative psychology it would just be either the cultural the culture of
of the Black Culture if you will how it creates individuals or it would be
the psychic Lisa caught one of many different forms of indigenous
psychology's that are in dialogue with each other.

My best,

Mike

On Tue, Jul 21, 2020, 1:05 PM Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

> Hi Blaine,
>
>
>
>   I certainly do trust you, and absolutely did not worry about this being
> a “gotcha” question. So far, the TOK has been a place of good faith
> dialogue and mutual respect and I expect that to continue until I see
> evidence of the contrary.
>
>
>
> Lots to unpack here, which I why I simply left it open ended 😊. But,
> since you asked, let me offer some reflections.
>
>
>
>   The first issue has to do with one’s philosophy of psychology and the
> kind and identity of the institution of Psychology. If we adopt a broad,
> social constructionist view of the field of what psychology is, and we
> embrace the idea that as an institution, Psychology (with a capital P)
> should let a 1000 flowers bloom (to use a term by the historian Ludy
> Benjamin <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__psycnet.apa.org_record_2006-2D10050-2D006&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=rx6veu-CO3TaCJsXTn0BGh8VfgQtECSqDJ-Pl5wT3rI&s=V3z_hPcdqGXGz9wW8EdyJCR0_vy-35rlxMrXo2tNuAA&e= >), then I am all
> for the idea and division of Black Psychology. It represents an important
> voice in the tapestry of voices. Of course, a problem with this is that we
> can now basically have a psychology of anything, but that is a separate
> issue than I want to tackle.
>
>
>
>   But if we adopt a more modern, natural, empirical science version of
> what psychology is, then the idea of Black psychology would be akin to
> Black physics, Black chemistry or Black biology. This is what I think the
> Department Heads that were referenced in the blog were potentially getting
> at in a perhaps insensitive way. Now, we can explore the lives of black
> physicists (I recommend this podcast
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtube.com_watch-3Fv-3DdKklcL1WNec&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=rx6veu-CO3TaCJsXTn0BGh8VfgQtECSqDJ-Pl5wT3rI&s=By8qRIF_6TaskNt1gPNfQ_aeMd8aHnG_YGspvuT4zNk&e= > with Coleman Hughes and
> Neil DeGrasse Tyson, where Tyson discusses a meeting of Black physicists),
> but I hope that the idea of a Black science of physics would rub us all the
> wrong way for obvious reasons.  So, that is the analogy I would draw here,
> and from it we can see where there might be problems. That is, clearly we
> want psychologists studying the unique experiences, cultures and lives of
> Black Americans (or whatever ethic group, as I did in for my masters
> thesis), and we want associations for folks to co-mingle who feel
> marginalized. Things get fuzzy/complicated/problematic if we differentiate
> Black psychology from White psychology, where the former is a different
> kind of science or body of knowledge or epistemology or whatever the
> defining features of the discipline are taken to be.
>
>  From a unified metapsychology view, the basic science of psychology
> should be defined as the science of mental behavior, or Mind, defined as
> the third dimension of behavioral complexity (or plane of existence). Human
> psychology is a basic scientific discipline that resides at the base of the
> social sciences. Basic and human psychology are no more “white” sciences
> than physics is a Black science in this conception.
>
>
>
>  The bottom line is that the word psychology has an almost infinite set of
> meanings attached to it. One of the reasons I offer and advocate for the
> ToK System is that it provides a conceptual language system that allows for
> a coherent science of psychology to emerge. This is argued to be a
> transcendent Cultural view; i.e., unlike claims of the more strident
> postmodern constructionist epistemologies, it argues that such a position
> on the human condition can be taken and one can do so analytically in away
> that steps out of the stream of socio-cultural justification. From this
> vantage point, the idea of Black Psychology or, for that matter, Police
> Psychology, is an artefact of a time when psychology was pre-paradigmatic.
> Now that we can obtain a full transparadigmatic view, such identities will
> fade and the proper foundational conception of psychology/Psychology will
> find is root and grow in the (metamodern) Garden of ideas 😊.
>
>
>
>   Hope this clarifies, as these are the main issues as I see them. Let me
> know if questions or concerns emerge.
>
>
>
> Best,
> Gregg
>
>
>
> *From:* tree of knowledge system discussion <
> [log in to unmask]> *On Behalf Of *Fowers, Blaine J
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 21, 2020 12:30 PM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Subject:* Re: Black Psychology?...and who has higher self-esteem in US?
> Blacks or Whites?
>
>
>
> I should clarify the question I asked Gregg a moment ago. Gregg knows me,
> and I think trusts me, but most people on the list do not know me and might
> be wondering if I'm trying to do some kind of "gotcha" thing. Just to be
> clear, I'm not about "gotcha" at all.
>
>
>
> The question is just part of my process of learning much more about Black
> psychology as a white, cisgender, 63 year old male. This blog just seems
> like a great opportunity to learn for many of us.
>
>
>
> All the best,
>
> Blaine
>
>
>
> Blaine J. Fowers, Ph.D.
>
> Professor
>
> Department of Educational and
>
> Psychological Studies
>
> Merrick 312
>
> 5202 University Dr.
>
> Coral Gables, FL 33146
>
> 305-284-5261 (o)
>
> 305-284-3003 (f)
>
>
>
> Frailty, Suffering, and Vice: Flourishing in the Face of Human Limitations
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.apa.org_pubs_books_4317447.aspx&d=DwMF-g&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=sBjC3j57fAolYe9uifazv8985XVC7L2QCcgZ7jbwJeA&s=nxnJwDLh9oax4m6a8rr3DRQXxkB9u--oAY2zib2AhHI&e=>
>
> The Evolution of Ethics
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.palgrave.com_us_book_9781137344656-23otherversion-3D9781349466139&d=DwMF-g&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=sBjC3j57fAolYe9uifazv8985XVC7L2QCcgZ7jbwJeA&s=xmAiroXCYGYDb70PSsP97Ocr-IfJ04-McAMPUmdE8Fs&e=>
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__blainefowers.com&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=rx6veu-CO3TaCJsXTn0BGh8VfgQtECSqDJ-Pl5wT3rI&s=NUXi4ZImvghdN5dAf1kzc2oTPhrmbDaecsht406JEII&e= 
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__blainefowers.com&d=DwMF-g&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=sBjC3j57fAolYe9uifazv8985XVC7L2QCcgZ7jbwJeA&s=mSW8BUGv8PEHZkTw5a0NRr63cWw5PBFPjCsOypKhhNQ&e=>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* tree of knowledge system discussion <
> [log in to unmask]> on behalf of Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <
> [log in to unmask]>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 21, 2020 10:49 AM
> *To:* [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
> *Subject:* Black Psychology?...and who has higher self-esteem in US?
> Blacks or Whites?
>
>
>
> Here is an interesting blog that I confess to having mixed reactions to:
>
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.psychologytoday.com_us_blog_black-2Dpsychology-2Dmatters_202007_why-2Dblack-2Dpsychology-2Dmatters&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=rx6veu-CO3TaCJsXTn0BGh8VfgQtECSqDJ-Pl5wT3rI&s=rkS4gAZnWhyntCjO98YziEQsnoXmMASD_KQtQ5N2aHk&e= 
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Fwww.psychologytoday.com-252Fus-252Fblog-252Fblack-2Dpsychology-2Dmatters-252F202007-252Fwhy-2Dblack-2Dpsychology-2Dmatters-26data-3D02-257C01-257Cbfowers-2540MIAMI.EDU-257C182ab4f3bfe94b105ae108d82d854d02-257C2a144b72f23942d48c0e6f0f17c48e33-257C0-257C1-257C637309397837606266-26sdata-3DzaYiSZMp43B-252Fc1-252Fcp9l961pGsEYwFMOcaKaQVnaUvmw-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwMF-g&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=sBjC3j57fAolYe9uifazv8985XVC7L2QCcgZ7jbwJeA&s=g9DO66SUvy3Gqr8C0RX-5mB7SpFQRRl8qKgQNh9PEjU&e=>
>
>
>
> It really gets deeply at the question of “What is Psychology? What Should
> it Be?”
>
>
>
> Although a bit of an aside, the blog reminds me of an interesting fact
> that I think should probably be better known than it is, as I learned about
> it during conducting research for my masters thesis. It is the fact that of
> all the various ethnic groups routinely studied in the US, Blacks tend to
> score the highest on self-esteem. Here is a 1990s
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Fwww.gregghenriques.com-252Fuploads-252F2-252F4-252F3-252F6-252F24368778-252Fgender-5Fand-5Fethnic-5Fdiff-5Fbet-5Fbody-5Fand-5Fself.pdf-26data-3D02-257C01-257Cbfowers-2540MIAMI.EDU-257C182ab4f3bfe94b105ae108d82d854d02-257C2a144b72f23942d48c0e6f0f17c48e33-257C0-257C1-257C637309397837616261-26sdata-3DCHVqwlVrJTwLRXjkEtyYay6jAlqwHiYottcWUaK3QZY-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwMF-g&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=sBjC3j57fAolYe9uifazv8985XVC7L2QCcgZ7jbwJeA&s=wj3o_JEuny7wT6ZtnwYHPjeZF54mOE7fRX__g7fuX9c&e=>
> publication from my work on my masters thesis, which found this to be the
> case, although I was not looking for it. Here is a more recent 2010s
> replication
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Fwww.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov-252Fpmc-252Farticles-252FPMC3263756-252F-26data-3D02-257C01-257Cbfowers-2540MIAMI.EDU-257C182ab4f3bfe94b105ae108d82d854d02-257C2a144b72f23942d48c0e6f0f17c48e33-257C0-257C1-257C637309397837616261-26sdata-3DIh4PZEbqPZOPmIxaZvOToCQm8bT-252F8i4UneJjs3NCDcA-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwMF-g&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=sBjC3j57fAolYe9uifazv8985XVC7L2QCcgZ7jbwJeA&s=ymFpcIzvffr5cX422fJV8aZ6PacTXBXhUsCNQC_4TY8&e=>
> .
>
>
>
> I would be curious to hear if folks have ideas about why this might be the
> case. I have some notions, but have not seen a systematic analysis that
> seems to make sense of all the threads.
>
>
> Best,
> Gregg
>
> ___________________________________________
>
> Gregg Henriques, Ph.D.
> Professor
> Department of Graduate Psychology
> 216 Johnston Hall
> MSC 7401
> James Madison University
> Harrisonburg, VA 22807
> (540) 568-7857 (phone)
> (540) 568-4747 (fax)
>
>
> *Be that which enhances dignity and well-being with integrity.*
>
> Check out my Theory of Knowledge blog at Psychology Today at:
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.psychologytoday.com_blog_theory-2Dknowledge&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=rx6veu-CO3TaCJsXTn0BGh8VfgQtECSqDJ-Pl5wT3rI&s=uN11Jjp8ASLXJyfyDxJd0HKtUcP8IFaGWT4n_a74mr8&e= 
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Fwww.psychologytoday.com-252Fblog-252Ftheory-2Dknowledge-26data-3D02-257C01-257Cbfowers-2540MIAMI.EDU-257C182ab4f3bfe94b105ae108d82d854d02-257C2a144b72f23942d48c0e6f0f17c48e33-257C0-257C1-257C637309397837626254-26sdata-3DSDlxBvhnsK-252F35WczVfnJlBgXjPGcnEb9kS-252BzpsEOmpo-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwMF-g&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=sBjC3j57fAolYe9uifazv8985XVC7L2QCcgZ7jbwJeA&s=hH829yfHHaKeL3CiQ-Cqn0Q31LljXZ6QxfDGtV5tDMk&e=>
>
>
>
> Check out my webpage at:
>
> www.gregghenriques.com
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Fwww.gregghenriques.com-252F-26data-3D02-257C01-257Cbfowers-2540MIAMI.EDU-257C182ab4f3bfe94b105ae108d82d854d02-257C2a144b72f23942d48c0e6f0f17c48e33-257C0-257C1-257C637309397837626254-26sdata-3DXS7zNzylWn2VoCkYLHE3pJ1b-252BibF9izIZNwHVQE6X14-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwMF-g&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=sBjC3j57fAolYe9uifazv8985XVC7L2QCcgZ7jbwJeA&s=WANwSUFZ5Et83VrfuAVPF1vx4IHFQeGbpf5Tp9L5QvA&e=>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ############################
>
> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to:
> mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the
> following link:
> http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Flistserv.jmu.edu-252Fcgi-2Dbin-252Fwa-253FSUBED1-253DTOK-2DSOCIETY-2DL-2526A-253D1-26data-3D02-257C01-257Cbfowers-2540MIAMI.EDU-257C182ab4f3bfe94b105ae108d82d854d02-257C2a144b72f23942d48c0e6f0f17c48e33-257C0-257C1-257C637309397837636247-26sdata-3DCGkNrS-252BOkRz39uzX-252FCZgVO4hMEXYaxBharRLYXGa5pc-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwMF-g&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=sBjC3j57fAolYe9uifazv8985XVC7L2QCcgZ7jbwJeA&s=6_NOvixAaYhuL44Mvph59sH2JsNz-5I_NEBjQ27aQHo&e=>
>
> ############################
>
> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to:
> mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the
> following link:
> http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1
> ############################
>
> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to:
> mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the
> following link:
> http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1
>

############################

To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list:
write to: mailto:[log in to unmask]
or click the following link:
http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1