Hi Helen
Maybe those cases you are talking about, part of the problem is that they do not really have any alterative to the public school in their district. Right now many parents in low-income households do not have an option to choose better schools, even if they wanted to and that also has to do with governmental regulation, because the private sector is not allowed to compete directly and offer alternatives to the current government model.
It’s not that poor communities should compete with wealthier communities. The way I see it, the question is rather if we can create competition in the educational options which is offered to poor neighbourhoods. If we removed educational regulation and allowed private enterprises to compete, my argument is that you would see a change happening very fast – especially if you combined it with closing down governmental programs which are very expensive and ineffective and used that money for a negative income tax instead, so poor families could actually afford better education.
Best
Elung
Fra: Helen Wu<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Sendt: 10. oktober 2019 22:20
Til: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Emne: Re: podcast with Andrew Yang
Hi Elung,
After working in this field for a while, it's actually not hard to find examples of incidences in which the child's education is on the lower tier of a parent's concerns. Poor communities have a lot going on and some families don't have the mental space to deal with some basic needs. I also agree that the government is inefficient and sometimes don't have the best ideas around education. Thinking of my own childhood in a poor community, I have several disagreements with how schools are run. However, I just don't see how poor communities are going to have the money to compete with wealthier communities for the good teachers and principals if we change to a private school system.
Best,
Helen
On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 2:58 PM Alexander Elung <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
I think you would be hard pressed to find a parent who doesn’t understand the value of a good education. People are even getting jailed for trying to get their kids into better schools. https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.refinery29.com_en-2Dus_2019_03_227024_tanya-2Dmcdowell-2Dcollege-2Dadmissions-2Dscandal-2Darrested-2Dprivilege&d=DwIF-g&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=4BKdl2AsLrzWM9Uy1QMknWYMUtWr74K5go6zO0ZRj2M&s=dC_TrjZzwdGDmXEAXbyioD2HW50TlZ8OMQ4VP7GUTsE&e=<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Furldefense.proofpoint.com-252Fv2-252Furl-253Fu-253Dhttps-2D3A-5F-5Fwww.refinery29.com-5Fen-2D2Dus-5F2019-5F03-5F227024-5Ftanya-2D2Dmcdowell-2D2Dcollege-2D2Dadmissions-2D2Dscandal-2D2Darrested-2D2Dprivilege-2526d-253DDwMF-2Dg-2526c-253DeLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn-5F5nBEmmeq0-2526r-253DHPo1IXYDhKClogP-2DUOpybo6Cfxxz-2DjIYBgjO2gOz4-2DA-2526m-253DLkRH-5FpI5DiizGQY-2DsLZ8mZQMZamOXd3QaGMId80jO-2DM-2526s-253D7H2pGIsTr69l1PBcRJBl6p0ZEt3u66WkgltRyZAU5yY-2526e-253D-26data-3D02-257C01-257C-257C18e193a880c54082868d08d74dbf58ac-257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa-257C1-257C0-257C637063356528379488-26sdata-3DUE7iN9sv-252FH-252Bl22qHaOPylPaHwqlptMuAdk5Y3jWhx44-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwIF-g&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=4BKdl2AsLrzWM9Uy1QMknWYMUtWr74K5go6zO0ZRj2M&s=Os28Aq8-BIhwiRleZeCnIhnvNWuzAOyEGkwHUUNrfOk&e=>
The real problem is that the quality of educations is very low in many public schools and especially in poor areas, where schools are little more than jails. The real problem is the public schools system itself and how much government regulation is in the school system in general. Why are we just assuming that the way schools are currently organized is the most efficient way to educate children ? Why are we assuming that the subjects we are teaching kids are the most relevant to their lives and work ? By allowing competition in the educational field and removing unnecessary governmental regulation, I think we could solve many of the problems. Maybe forcing kids to read poetry and learn subjects that some government official has decided on, is not the best way to help poor people. Maybe it would be better if they chose their own subjects ? Maybe they have a better idea what will be relevant for their lives.
Since the government is designing our educational systems, there are no competition where we could test what works best. What makes things cheap and raise quality is competition.
Best
Elung
Fra: Helen Wu<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Sendt: 10. oktober 2019 21:35
Til: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Emne: Re: podcast with Andrew Yang
The problem with the issue of teachers' paid is complicated by community values. Some communities really value education and families will actively try to get their kids into good schools hence increasing paid for teachers in those areas. Some communities don't value education as much or are just too poor to pay teachers well. What do we do about the latter situations? It's not fair for the children that they will fall behind others in life because of where they happen to be born. How do we promote healthy values across this nation without being overly intrusive into personal choice and freedom?
On Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 2:09 PM Alexander Elung <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
I am basing my understanding the Austrian school of economics, which is rooted in neoclassical thinking. I would argue that the Marxist models you are using are simply wrong, because they don’t accurately represent what is actually happening in the marketplace.
It’s possible to talk about use-value, but the problem with such a concept is that nothing has a fixed value. Air for instance can be worth nothing or worth everything if you are under water. Simple wheat can be worth everything if you are starving and nothing if you aren’t. I wouldn’t pay anything for a 5 kg of raw wheat right now – it would be of less value to me currently than a single dorito chip.
so the first difference between Marxist and neo-classical thinking, is the realization that value is subjective. If you are using models where you are expecting to find use-value or labour-value to be accurately represented in exchange-value, then your models will fail almost immediately.
There is no such thing as labour-value, since Picasso can spend five seconds on a doodle and it would be worth more than a very skilful painter using 100 hours or Kim Kardashian could take a single selfie which could be worth a months wages of a school teacher.
But let’s tackle the problem, we both think teachers provide something which should be valuable, but isn’t really valued that much in the market. Let’s say we both agree that teachers should be paid more, I will make the argument that my models can solve the problem and your models will misdiagnose the problem and ultimately make the problem worse.
You think teachers are underpaid because of an economic signal from society. I don’t think teachers are underpaid. Underpaid is a concept that doesn’t have any meaning, unless you are looking at a field of competition where someone isn’t getting the same pay as others in the same field – if their labour is worth more than they are paid, then they can sell it another place.
so no, I don’t think teachers are underpaid at a principle. However, let’s solve the problem you raised. Why do we not value teachers work more ? I think teachers are “underpaid” because most schools have become a terrible business-model. There are private schools which have excellent payment for their teachers. The problem is that public schools are run by government and the government is insanely inefficient at using money, because it’s not in competition with anyone. If schools were in competition with each other, they would compete on low prices for the students and higher prices for qualified work. They would compete to have the best teachers, because that would get them more students.
Currently you can be an amazing teacher or a terrible teacher and get paid the same in the public school system and therefore teachers are generally underpaid.
competition helps everyone – both the teachers and the students. Public run schools helps nobody, since it makes everything more expensive and less profitable.
Under a free market, teachers can become rock-stars and make as much money as Kim Kardashian. If all entertainment was socialized and ran as public institutions– none of the stars would make any money.
However with the models you are using, you will never come to such a realization, because you are thinking in terms of what people “should” get paid – instead of looking at payment as a representation of the value a person is providing.
Best
Elung
Fra: Zachary Stein<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Sendt: 10. oktober 2019 19:33
Til: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Emne: Re: podcast with Andrew Yang
This is super interesting. Thanks Alexander. My preference is civility as well, so please forgive my preemptive armoring.
I think we are at a paradigmatic impasse, as the (neo-classical?) models you are using I simply don’t use. For example, I find it useful to make a distinction between *use value* and *exchange value,* which is a distinction you might find disagreeable. I am also interested in the category of *objective value* — this is why I say that when Kim Kardashian makes more with a months worth of instagram posts than the best school teacher will make in her entire life, I think this is a problem akin to our society placing value on the wrong things (i.e., valuing something that is not really valuable). My sense is you might also think that kind of thing is a problem, but of a different kind? Indeed you speak of unnatural inequality, which sounds a lot like my idea of *extreme* inequality. Help me understand the difference please.
Note my concern here is with the underpaid teacher, as it has been all along ;-) … Childishly… I am worried about my teachers still, who I guess don’t add value according to the models you are using? … Sincerely, I am asking how you would model this problem of underpaid, but highly skilled people in crucial social roles… I see that they consistently receive an economic signal that they are not of value to society, but I think that signal is simply an error that should be corrected…
zak
On Oct 10, 2019, at 11:47 AM, Alexander Elung <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
I don’t think you have mistaken me for someone else. I have been in a lot of discussions with Bard recently where personal attack became involved, but I never used them over arguments and I very rarely use them in general. I much prefer civil discussion – in this case however, you were the one who came swinging fists right out the gates. But I will try to be as civil as humanly possible.
-
Income isn’t directly tied to skill nor should it be. Your income is tied to what value you are able to provide in the market. The value is determined by what people are willing to pay for what you are providing. What value you are able to provide is therefore indirectly tied to skill, but there are more factors connected to it than that.
So we should in fact not expect skill and income to be directly correlated. You can be extremely skilful and not provide something which people are interested in or you have can have relatively low skill and provide something which a lot of people values very highly. This misunderstanding is your first problem. Unless you make a living off coercion, your income is based on how much value you are providing I.e what people are willing to pay you. Skills factor into that, but it’s not the only factor , since value is subjective.
your argument that certain things are being over-evaluated is also a fundamental misunderstanding of how the market works. Value is subjective Zac – things are only worth the value they have in the market and value in the marketplace is determined by what people are willing to pay.
Your second problem is that you think inequality is an accurate measure for societal problems. It’s not. Poverty, suffering, lack of dignity, exploitation and so on are actual markers which one can use to analyse if something is wrong in a society. Inequality is really a bad marker, since it doesn’t tell us anything about whether or not the difference is natural or not and whether or not it’s harmful.
When harry potter makes billions of dollars that makes the income inequality very high compared to how much the average person makes, but it doesn’t reflect a problem. People inheriting money also does not reflect a problem at all. You seem to be very focused on people you think are “ too rich” instead of focusing on people who are suffering because of poverty – that is why I think this is subconsciously childish envy.
Don’t get me wrong – there can be unnatural inequality. If you wanted to make an actual argument, you could argue that legal protectionism has created some unfair advantages for corporations which has led them to be able to hinder competition and therefore get larger market shares than they would in a free market – that is an actual problem. But inequality in itself isn’t and thus far you haven’t made a single argument as to why.
I recommend that you read “economics in one lesson” by Hazlitt or “human action” by Mises.
Best
Elung
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