Gregg,

I'm a little confused about how you differentiate cultural evolution from
societal evolution.
" I am not a huge fan of memes as a “real” concept because they conflate
societal versus Culture evolution.  "
How to memes do this? I would argue that technologies are memes that spawn
out of group intelligence and reproduce throughout the population. Are you
saying that technologies and other memes are not large-scale justifications
but merely products of the justification process?

I'm confused because I don't know how you can differentiate justification
systems from memes. Justification systems are themselves memeplexes. But
memes are a bigger category. Why constrain the model to a mere subset of
memes when all memes are essentially "the stuff of culture", and all of
them are selected by some process of justification?. At least that's how I
understand them. All memes, large-scale justification processes included, are
justified by the "pragmatic truth" (I think I would actually argue that
culture evolves towards all the forms of truth you listed; they overlap,
but the pragmatic truth is where our values that emerge out of behavioral
investment theory meet the universe. It's this truth that seems to be the
fitness landscape of culture)

It seems like you're saying that large-scale justification memeplexes are
the stuff of culture, but I would argue that all sorts of memes coordinate
large populations.

"Culture, with a capital C on the ToK, refers to the large-scale systems of
justification (mediated by language) that coordinate people. Culture is not
synonymous with society as a whole. Society as a whole would need to
include a number of other features, most notably: (a) the biophysical
environment; (b) the behavioral investment practices; and (c) technologies
developed to control and coordinate the flow of energy expenditure."

I think that because all memes are selected by the justification process
that you can include all memes within culture. Memes are the stuff of
culture in my understanding.

I would argue that the domain of memes is distinct from the biophysical
environment just like large-scale justification systems. (although anything
can become a meme; genes become memes when we start genetic engineering)

Behavioral investment practices can be memes; they are the product of memes
and our neurobiology. I'm having a hard time thinking of any behavioral
investment practice that isn't a meme because all human behavior gets
replicated and spreads throughout communication. A son absorbs his father's
memes, for instance. Memes include those archetypes and personality
features that can replicate by the process of justification. This is where
culture seems to blur into biology, but I think you can draw a clear line
between everthing that reproduces from mind-to-mind and those features of
human characters that don't reproduce.

And I would argue that technologies are memes, but the flow of energy
expenditure is a different subject

So the biophysical environment, the flow of energy expenditure and those
aspects of behavioral investment practice that are "below" memes, in the
domain of biology are all societal but not cultural in your view?

My case is that the examples you gave for society and not culture are not
memetic, so why not include everything that's selected by the justification
process, namely all memes, in culture rather than just large-scale
justfications?

To me, the fact that all memes get selected by justification is an
extremely novel and important thing to know. It has profound implications
for the trajectory of cultural evolution, don't you think?
I believe that (basically) the pragmatic truth is the fitness landscape
that selects for memes. But all forms of truth are included, I just mean to
say that it's reality AND our values laid down in the domain of Mind
(basically valence, I think), and this combination of reality and our
values seems best called the pragmatic truth.

The pragmatic truth is like a meta-environment that selects for memes above
the natural environment which selects for organisms. (I would say that that
which selects for behaviors in the domain of Mind is like a simpler version
of the pragmatic truth... raw values based on valence.) It is valence that
selects for behaviors in the domain of mind, isn't it?

 It seems to me that culture absorbs all the behaviors included in the
domain of mind because all of those behaviors get replicated and radiate in
the population. Culture also absorbs biology when engineered genes become
memes and natural selection gets replaced by intelligent design.  Culture
is like a giant organism that is sucking up everything to make it part of
itself.

Basically, I'm arguing that
1) all memes can be large scale justification systems. Many memes play a
part in coordinating the population as a whole. Even simple memes. What
would you say is the difference?
2) The fact that memes are selected by the process of justification
provides predictive power, and it's the truth that is the basis of
justification, so we can claim that culture evolves towards truth.







On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 7:59 AM, Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <
[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Hi Jamie,
>
>
>
>   Thanks for this note. Yes, there is a point in the book where I refer to
> justifications as being an example of a “meme” in the sense that they can
> be thought of as a unit of information that is selected for, replicates and
> is networked into the larger system (Culture).
>
>
>
>   You are correct to note that much work needs to going into fleshing out
> the concept of “justification” and what it means in the ToK System. It
> really is a book length topic. I love the word because it is both clear and
> broad. However, as one grasps its breadth and utility, comprehension
> regarding exactly what it is and the various angles of what it means
> results in some notable fuzziness. At the end of my book (as I believe you
> noted in an earlier contribution to the list), I develop the idea that
> there are key elements of justification (linguistic-semantic, analytic,
> correspondent-evidentiary, subjective, social, and moral). There is much
> work to do along those lines.
>
>
>
>   One of the things about the ToK lens is the way it divides reality into
> dimensions of complexity based on communication-information processing
> mediums (to pull in a McLuhan)…thus mapping the behavior of cells, animals,
> and people. This results in a novel approach to cultural versus societal
> evolution, which is relevant for what you write below. Culture, with a
> capital C on the ToK, refers to the large-scale systems of justification
> (mediated by language) that coordinate people. Culture is not synonymous
> with society as a whole. Society as a whole would need to include a number
> of other features, most notably: (a) the biophysical environment; (b) the
> behavioral investment practices; and (c) technologies developed to control
> and coordinate the flow of energy expenditure.
>
>
>
>   We can apply this to a concrete example, such as the game of basketball.
> The justifications are the rules of basketball and the story of the game
> and why it is played. The skills of basketball are the behavioral
> investment practices. The biophysical ecology is the place in physical
> spacetime in which basketball evolves, and the court, ball, rims, stadiums,
> etc. are the technologies of the game. I like memes as a metaphor and it
> helped highlight the concept of cultural-social evolution. I am not a huge
> fan of memes as a “real” concept because they conflate societal versus
> Culture evolution.
>
>
>
>   I definitely agree that justification systems evolve, and the process
> can be characterized via a variation (different justifications) selection
> based on what is deemed justifiable (this will vary for a host of reasons
> and needs exposition) and those justifications can be retained. I believe
> that science has evolved via justification processes.
>
>
>
>   I believe that justification processes took a huge step toward “the
> truth” in Western Civilization when Socrates developed his approach, which
> essentially formalized “epistemological justification,” meaning that he
> differentiated the practical justification of knowledge (know how) from the
> epistemological meaning (how do you know that you know the truth). Of
> course, his general conclusion was that he (and everyone else) basically
> knows nothing in terms of authentic epistemological justification. Plato
> and Aristotle took up the challenge and the processes of building
> epistemologically justifiable systems got underway. As has been discussed
> here recently, their key difference is in their “ultimate justification,”
> their map of ontology. Plato was an idealist (the pure intellectual ideas
> were what was real for him) and Aristotle was a material substance guy who
> argued reality starts with the physical-material world.   Philosophy, IMO,
> is about getting closer to “the truth” than the justifications that came
> before it. But this needs to be qualified in some ways,  as truth is, or
> course, a tricky word. Lots of angles on that concept to be unpacked. Here
> is a slide I have that reviews seven different meanings/frames for truth:
>
>
> Best,
>
> Gregg
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* tree of knowledge system discussion <[log in to unmask]
> edu> *On Behalf Of *Mathew Jamie Dunbaugh
> *Sent:* Saturday, August 11, 2018 5:49 AM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Subject:* Are memes the units selected by justification?
>
>
>
> Gregg,
>
>
>
> I forget where exactly, but I recall that in your book you write that
> memes are close to justifications.
>
> I'm under the impression that memes are selected by the process of
> justification, although we would have to elaborate more on what we mean by
> justification. For instance, how is art selected? I would argue that art is
> selected by the structures of the brain that determine the quality of our
> aesthetic experience. There are two types of good art. One kind of art
> speaks the truth. It reveals something about ourselves or nature to us.
> Your work is even a kind of art that reveals the truth to us. Another kind
> of good art is that which takes us into new aesthetic experiences. I would
> also add that the quality of aesthetic experience comes directly from the
> truth that exists in the art. So there is clearly a process of
> justification in the selection for art.
>
> Would you agree that memes are the units selected by justification? Your
> model sticks to symbols, but what about technologies, practices, norms,
> etc, all of which are selected by a process of justification?
>
>
>
> Would you agree that there is a general trend towards the pragmatic truth
> in cultural evolution because of the process of selection-by-justification?
>
> There are various problems with the concept of memes that differentiate
> them from biological evolution. I got these from the Stanford encyclopedia
> of philosophy on cultural evolution: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__plato.stanford.edu_&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=emtEnmX2BqsIyaQh0dOf0bu6LmqwROmJ2huk6J-eTn4&s=BMar1EHUEKuHxeZjBK-ist22_3qaUmglE8q3SsJBDko&e=
> entries/evolution-cultural/#ProMem
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__plato.stanford.edu_entries_evolution-2Dcultural_-23ProMem&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=kBr9qgz2r9t14O5J-ZVqQXJLpPB3ATQjOrE2qbVmnSw&s=FucekOky4OQE5R1Rtvc6K29ycdbnMK57yoyEeIDxB78&e=>
> :
>
> *1) Cultural units are not replicators*
>
> *2) Cultural units do not form lineages*
>
> *3) Culture cannot be atomised into discrete units*
>
> However, I would disagree with these, at least the first two. Memes can
> spawn out of brains and radiate out into the population by replication.
>
>
>
> And the evolution of the car, or language, or certain practices are
> examples of lineages. It seems to me there are memetic lineages all over
> the place.
>
>
>
> And genes can't even really be atomized into discrete units, so what's the
> problem is memes can't also?
>
> Again, I think you said that memes are like justifications, but the normal
> understanding of memes is that they are replicating behaviors often
> embodied in symbols.
>
> My main point is this:
>
> The fitness landscape for memes is the pragmatic truth, that is, the truth
> that we value. It's where behavioral investment theory meets the mysterious
> universe. It is that truth that selects memes and determines if they are
> justified. This is at least similar to your justification hypothesis, in
> that the pragmatic truth is the basis for how humans justify their actions
> to each other. Of course, early on, we weren't very good at determining the
> truth, but there is a clear ongoing process of revelation and a refinement
> of the process of justification that coincides with material progress. All
> of the cultural evolutionary trends I listed in previous emails help to
> refine the process of justification.
>
> Thanks.
>
>
>
> Jamie
>
> ############################
>
> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to:
> mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the
> following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=
> 1
> ############################
>
> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to:
> mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the
> following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=
> 1
>

############################

To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list:
write to: mailto:[log in to unmask]
or click the following link:
http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1