Colleagues,
Saw the entire Ken & Wilber interview <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__youtu.be_mL8aL7fhyPI&d=DwIDaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZDfUqfxS9VGr_giOpPlDFVBiRPzYz_ke2gMPgZAxYYQ&s=ZQ_ZdcaGdsxxuZ6S-yhzYJeY2neW3ddsLIC1uYe-qqs&e= >.
Let me state the background of what I write below. I have studied texts
of Keno, Mandukya, Tattirya Upanishads - the source of much that Wilber
describes (incl. but not limited to Turiya). Secondly, I have put
together a whole chapter on consciousness in Indian philosophy in my
book which I have fondly titled *"Awareness and Consciousness -
Discovery, Distinction and Evolution. The New _Upanishad_."*
The first imp. thing to remember is the context of these philosophies -
most are complilation from various sources with unknown authors. Most of
it probably written between 9th century BC and 1st Century AD because
lot of these discussions are part of writings by Adi Shankaracharya
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikipedia.org_wiki_Adi-5FShankara&d=DwIDaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZDfUqfxS9VGr_giOpPlDFVBiRPzYz_ke2gMPgZAxYYQ&s=dk6wyYGr-EhamfwxlvlGNsiw2BzituucKGyTdycHB0s&e= > around 1st AD. Lot of this
thinking rises in the period of Buddhism's primacy and prevalence in
India. Indeed, there were 3-4 centuries after Mahatma Buddh when
materialism (in context of primacy of sensory inputs) and atheism (Both
Buddhism and Jainism <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikipedia.org_wiki_Mahavira&d=DwIDaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZDfUqfxS9VGr_giOpPlDFVBiRPzYz_ke2gMPgZAxYYQ&s=F98y9q0L5PJZdls2aSx47NB0la_L0gTEk9se_6o1FzM&e= >are
atheistic) were at its peak in India and the predominant philosophy of
India/Indians. Both Buddha's teachings and Jainism are atheistic religions.
Lack of any outside God (in Buddhism & Jainism) led to a major focus on
the inside capabilities of humans and their exploitation. Once informed
that there is no divinity outside of human body, the only other place to
look for it is inside. Mahatma (means great soul) Buddh and Mahavir (the
brave) Jain were contemporaries & both developed the art of meditation.
Jain indeed developed innumerable experiments with human body through
pain-pleasure, hunger-satiation paradigms to which Buddha did not
subscribe, and gave the world the middle path.
The reasons for providing the aforementioned background are
A) it is important to understand that these were outcomes of
exceptionally deep thinking cuddled in materialistic and atheistic
backgrounds. And an outcome of implosion of ideas rather than explosion
- vector of research - pointing inside one's body & brain rather than
outside. This is the period of great inventions and discoveries. The
time of Sushrata <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikipedia.org_wiki_Sushruta&d=DwIDaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZDfUqfxS9VGr_giOpPlDFVBiRPzYz_ke2gMPgZAxYYQ&s=QCx7lsYTrKtzOnf8FZlTt5_8csWew98YocuF6m4u5Mg&e= > (the first
known surgeon/physician to humankind) and many other like him.
B) it is the peak of development of experiential versus the myths. The
concept of third party objectivity did not exist at all. So the
comparison could/should be made only between the then two predominant
schools of thought - mythical and the experiential (though subjective).
It is important to note that this is the *'pre-faith'* era (hence myths
not faith ruled). In India this was the age of peaking of experiential
sciences - creation of methods that could enable individuals to practice
and experience heuristically, that which is propounded or projected to
be achieved. There is no guarantee that the nothingness (say in
meditation) of highest form of meditational experiences by one was same
as that experienced by other. But that both experienced something that
they usually do not (hence transcendental) and decided to title it
'nothingness' was much better than experiencing nothing and just
chanting something foolish and false one was told (myths). The
experiential, therefore was a major progress over irrational & false myths.
Now with this background, concepts of non-duality developed then were
completely disengaged thought. Disengaged from the then existing
reality. It was a few millenia in advance. Quite like teachings of
Buddh. For all subscribing to rationalism, this one statement by Buddh
encompasses truth, morality and most other things. At the cost of
reiteration...
/"Don't believe, don't believe only because you have been told, or it
has been transmitted to you by tradition, or you have thought on your
own and adopted it. Don't believe what your Guru (teacher) has told you
because you hold him in high esteem. Examine it, adequately analyze it,
and when you discover a thought beneficial to all, good for the
majority, in welfare of all living beings, believe in it, adopt it. Such
thought will be path revealing, because that belief will be self-made
and hence resolute."/
Non-duality is a great hypothesis, but it is not yet objective in its
structure. It is at best a conjecture. As described in Upanishads, it is
not just subjective but is experiential in nature. I think it is up to
us to discuss, probe, experiment & prove it right or wrong with
methodologies that are modern. I think neurocognitive sciences with
physics in its core, will prove or disapprove non-duality subsequently,
till then it is one of the greatest and brightest conjectures humankind
ever made. It has to be noted that at best, non-duality is not the
absolute truth but the representation of it. Quite like a sphere is a
representation of a complex plane. The Complex plane does not exist, it
is a mathematical abstraction for representing a sphere (mathematically)
on a Descartes plane. It is very important to underline that the
capability of an abstraction to solve certain physical problem does not
make the abstraction real. It is just an information-manipulative,
discovered reason for a physical truth for which a real reason is not
found or is not easy to be found and in some rare cases a real reason
might not exist (this happens in case of informational truths, which
have no physical existence at all). A good example was Medeleev's table,
which was (on basis of a deduced rule) propounded much before real
elements were discovered.
The aforementioned is also a cause of endless confusions, when the
quantum non-duality is confused with the Turiya and so on. Non-duality,
non-locality, entanglement, superposition, causality & retrocausality,
co-occurrence are very different in quantum mechanics & theory of fields
that they way these terms get used in philosophy. And philosophers pick
a physics idea operational under very specific conditions and apply it
somewhere, where it is not applicable and makes little sense. It is
important to note that phenomena existing in quantum states do not scale
to millimetres. They remain restricted to the quantum world & are a
truth of that world, which in some cases is beyond our observation and
even causality as we experience it. Non-duality or non-locality in the
QM and Upanishads is completely different and not applicable, when
exchanged in position.
_*Gregg, to bring my thought (that we terminated for lack of time
through our conversation yesterday) to expression, I see that a quiet
push to experiential sciences is happening today through advanced IT, AI
quatum computing etc. It will lead to resolution of non-duality, as a
spin off. *__*
*_
The kernel of objective science lay in Abrahamic religions that created
the society as the centre of experience. Taking the experiential centre
out from inside a human to a point outside & common to all striping it
of subjectivity to the extent possible. These are salient features that
are absorbed by a toddler as he grows. I call it the social-subconcious
- that we teach & children learn without either us being consciously
aware of teaching & children of learning. It led to termination of
experiential (which would go no to be considered Devilish, puritanical,
pagan, prudish and worse case - witchcarft) in west. This led to a need
of socially acceptable knowledge rather than personally experienced one.
Subsequently, leading to rapid development of technology as objective
knowledge could be easily & quickly disseminated through reproduced
writing, the need of tutoring was reduced substantially. Indeed
monotheism implied that the internal in all humans has to be concurred
to one external (hence universal morality & one God). This brought in
the need for uniformity - hence wars to convert the world to
Christianity, then Islam. The subjective & experiential was considered
chaotic. Which in some sense is true, because handling plurality needs a
very advanced culture. I see Communism was actually the epitomy of
Abrahamic thought when uniformity was taken one step further than the
spiritual (religious) to the fields of sociology and even
linguistically. All 15 Republics of USSR were made to speak Russian and
social equality became a norm. But this required a major social
differential to be settled - Resources (Economics). Communism went ahead
and made it uniform too.
Capitalism in that sense is a less developed or less than optimal aspect
of Abrahmic thought. Communism took externalization and uniformity to
its true peak. The capitalist west in some sense was standing 100metres
below Everest, the Germans (Engels & Marx) even devised the last lap
gameplan, but the Russians snatched the plan and acted on it taking
western monotheistic thought to its logical end - to communism the
Everest of Abrahamic thought. Once the absolute truth is taken from
inside of a human brain to a point outside, and everyone is asked to
match his internal state to the agreed or anointed outside point, the
next logical thing is to ensure that the milieu of existence is also
brought to uniformity, which was the undercurrent of communism (It
merits mention that I am in awe of certain amazing features of Soviet
Communism - like patronage of sciences, social equality, etc. as I am
personally a witness of it all. And I feel immensely pained to see that
Russians in the process of aping the west, threw the baby with the bath!)
Capitalism (economics) ran contradictory to the professed social
uniformity as it allowed exploration of subjectivity & the experiential
as it made Corporations explore that which a consumer likes (likeability
being internal & experiential in nature) and not that which is supplied.
Consumerism & Abrahamic thought is dichotomous. Fact is communism really
was a bid to execute equality and uniformity as desired by Abrahamic
religions (Judaism, Christianity & Islam).
The dawn of the objective (adjective) subjective (noun) is approaching
fast. Thanks to Google, Facebook, AI and Information Technology, it is
today possible to handle plurality much easier. Thus, there is a major
push to enable objective (statistical) understanding of the
experiential. This will lead to development of the Experiential &
Stoichiometric Sciences. And will one fine day lead to proving or
disproving of non-duality.
Will appreciate queries, if any. I hope I am clear in my expression.
TY
Deepak Loomba
On Sun, 22 Nov 2020 23:13 Nicholas Lattanzio, <[log in to unmask]
<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
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I actually just caught this email and watched the interview. Like
you Andre, I was following their conversation in great depth and
can't say I learned much, but still a great interview (Ken doesn't
tend to look so lively since he broke his legs, but he looked good
in this).
I believe you and I have a difference of opinion when it comes to
our ontologies, as I almost always concede to a nondual reality in
discussions and my own logic.
I definitely agree Wilber loses many people with his sort of
cockiness. In his defense he mainly lives in his ILP world wherein
he is pretty much worshipped, I can't imagine how hard it would be
to be extroverted and have that kind of following without coming off
as he does.
As a fan of Wilber, I'd like to think that is the truest
explanation. But while I'm sure it contributes I think the man is
really just that sure of himself, a certainty that's been wielded by
far worse hands.
Regards,
Nicholas G. Lattanzio, Psy.D.
On Sun, Nov 22, 2020, 10:18 AM Marquis, Andre
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Hey friend,
I watched about the first 25 minutes. I am very familiar with
what they were talking about but I still don’t like what comes
off to me as a smug certainty about REALITY
What was your experience of the interview?
dre
*From: *tree of knowledge system discussion
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*Reply-To: *tree of knowledge system discussion
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*Date: *Friday, November 20, 2020 at 4:37 PM
*To: *"[log in to unmask]
<mailto:[log in to unmask]>"
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*Subject: *[EXT] wilber freke
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___________________________________________
Gregg Henriques, Ph.D.
Professor
Department of Graduate Psychology
216 Johnston Hall
MSC 7401
James Madison University
Harrisonburg, VA 22807
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/Be that which enhances dignity and well-being with integrity./
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