Hi John,



“Harm, wounding, and injury, are all abstract labels for functions or
behaviors, devoid of any physical qualities.  These abstract behaviors can
be independent of substrate and physical qualities.  For example, you could
have harm to a real leg, and destruction of an artificial leg.  Knowledge
of such can also be qualitatively and physically different.  For example,
your knowledge of blood would have your redness physical quality, but my
knowledge, or knowledge of an engineered inverted copy of your brain, could
have equally functional knowledge of blood and "harm" that has what you
would now call a physical greenness quality.  In other words, only thinking
of colors, and words like “Harm, wounding, and injury” in these abstract
away from physical qualities ways is qualia blind.



If you are interested in being more rigorous about understanding of
physical qualities, and not being qualia blind, it would really help if you
would read this paper: “Objectively, We are Blind to Physical Qualities
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__docs.google.com_document_d_1uWUm3LzWVlY0ao5D9BFg4EQXGSopVDGPi-2DlVtCoJzzM_edit-3Fusp-3Dsharing&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=FBaLK4i0s1qauHg60LfHhqtgj8BqbS7CYKTEEY3i3t8&s=mFNcQdmgXzYmTu9uWKouaz3kGO33AZIu7EyMhr4lF4E&e=>
”.



On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 1:30 PM JOHN TORDAY <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Harm? Wounding? Injury?
>
> On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 11:48 AM Brent Allsop <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi John,
>>
>>
>>
>> “Perhaps is it blood?” for which “red” is a label for.
>>
>>
>>
>> You’re still not picking up on how this is sloppy thinking and sloppy
>> definitions about physical qualities.  Wouldn’t it be more accurate to
>> state that red is a label for any physical surface that reflects, or emits
>> “red” light?  And, again, if you engineered a red green signal inverter in
>> the retina, now your knowledge of the blood (or anything that reflects or
>> emits red light) has a greenness quality.  So, does this not prove that it
>> isn’t ‘blood’ that has a physically causal redness (or greenness) quality?
>>
>>
>>
>> So, if “red” is a label for any physical surface that reflects or emits
>> “red” light, which physical quality is “redness” a label for?
>>
>>
>> Brent
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 3:43 AM JOHN TORDAY <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Brent and List, thanks Brent for your patience in trying to
>>> understand how my 'take' on evolution differs from Darwin. And yes, your
>>> paraphrasing is correct, so I hope that's helpful. And as for 'which
>>> quality is red a label for' as I had said, perhaps it is blood? There is an
>>> article in the literature that hypothesizes that color vision evolved from
>>> blood, which I will try to find. John
>>>
>>> On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 10:15 PM Brent Allsop <[log in to unmask]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi John,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think I’m starting to better understand what you are saying.  Let me
>>>> see if I can repeat what you are talking about, to see if I’m starting to
>>>> understand.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Darwinian evolution models only really model things like achieving more
>>>> offspring.  Whereas considering cell-cell communication in embryologic
>>>> development as central better models homeostasis superimposed on
>>>> phylogeny.  This is a better way to understand the process of evolution
>>>> .
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I still have a question for you, about what you mean when you say: “perhaps
>>>> we see *'red'* when we are writhing in pain because it references
>>>> bleeding as a process related to pain”.  I understand what you mean,
>>>> abstractly.  But I have no idea what you mean, qualitatively.  In order to
>>>> know what red means, qualitatively, you must tell me which physical quality
>>>> it is a label for.  Since you never do this, I can’t know what you mean,
>>>> qualitatively, when you use the term *“red”.*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So that is my question, which physical quality do you consider red to
>>>> be a label for?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 6:10 AM JOHN TORDAY <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Dear Gregg, Brent, Aeon and List, if I could just jump in here, much
>>>>> of what is being said by all needs IMHO to be reconsidered in light of the
>>>>> difference between descriptive and mechanistic Biology/Physiology. So for
>>>>> example, semiotics is a description of what I have been referring to with
>>>>> respect to the centrality of cell-cell communication in embryologic
>>>>> development and homeostasis superimposed on phylogeny as the way to
>>>>> understand the process of evolution. That's very different from Darwinian
>>>>> evolution based on a reproductive strategy for more offspring, which is a
>>>>> materialistic viewpoint. In terms of Brent's quest for answering the 'Hard
>>>>> Question' of Qualia, I think the answer lies in the way I have recalibrated
>>>>> Pleiotropy, the capacity of biology to recombine/repermute the same gene
>>>>> for multiple purposes over the course of evolution. Up until now that
>>>>> phenomenon has remained a fascinoma, but seen in the context of evolution,
>>>>> it is explained by the pre-adaptational strategy of reutilizing genes under
>>>>> duress as the most economical way of solving existential problems
>>>>> evolutionarily. In the context of Qualia, perhaps we see 'red' when we are
>>>>> writhing in pain because it references bleeding as a process related to
>>>>> pain, the two processes being linked through common cellular-molecular
>>>>> signaling mechanisms. As for Aeon, I fully ascribe to the idea that we need
>>>>> to address how to re-synthesize philosophy and empiricism if I am correct
>>>>> in thinking that we've gotten evolution 'backwards' and that the
>>>>> unicellular state is the primary level of selection based on the emerging
>>>>> knowledge of epigenetic inheritance. With the Best of Intentions. John
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 7:42 AM Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <
>>>>> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi List,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   A friend sent this essay in Aeon on the relationship between
>>>>>> philosophy and science and the need to return to a natural philosophy
>>>>>> approach:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__aeon.co_essays_bring-2Dback-2Dscience-2Dand-2Dphilosophy-2Das-2Dnatural-2Dphilosophy-3Futm-5Fsource-3DAeon-2BNewsletter-26utm-5Fcampaign-3D16c95a1325-2DEMAIL-5FCAMPAIGN-5F2019-5F05-5F13-5F03-5F04-26utm-5Fmedium-3Demail-26utm-5Fterm-3D0-5F411a82e59d-2D16c95a1325-2D69915925&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=FBaLK4i0s1qauHg60LfHhqtgj8BqbS7CYKTEEY3i3t8&s=swnla-6j-6WZOnO8w9_uUyRBnkTmlSNn6Sf7okySwG0&e=
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__aeon.co_essays_bring-2Dback-2Dscience-2Dand-2Dphilosophy-2Das-2Dnatural-2Dphilosophy-3Futm-5Fsource-3DAeon-2BNewsletter-26utm-5Fcampaign-3D16c95a1325-2DEMAIL-5FCAMPAIGN-5F2019-5F05-5F13-5F03-5F04-26utm-5Fmedium-3Demail-26utm-5Fterm-3D0-5F411a82e59d-2D16c95a1325-2D69915925&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=dFVdlOFuFfkQC0g6biXlvVLZsP2vJxZfvnsSXc39KVU&s=0_AzQ9yI47iQK9ucAwT5NR2XIcx2ABsrsNB05yuKWPY&e=>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   I am on Maxwell’s Friends of Wisdom list as I became aware of his
>>>>>> work several months ago. It is a similar, although also different vision
>>>>>> for philosophy and science than the ToK System offers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>> G
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ___________________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gregg Henriques, Ph.D.
>>>>>> Professor
>>>>>> Department of Graduate Psychology
>>>>>> 216 Johnston Hall
>>>>>> MSC 7401
>>>>>> James Madison University
>>>>>> Harrisonburg, VA 22807
>>>>>> (540) 568-7857 (phone)
>>>>>> (540) 568-4747 (fax)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Be that which enhances dignity and well-being with integrity.*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Check out my Theory of Knowledge blog at Psychology Today at:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.psychologytoday.com_blog_theory-2Dknowledge&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=FBaLK4i0s1qauHg60LfHhqtgj8BqbS7CYKTEEY3i3t8&s=qgBescl79dL13aGbUlZWX3rE7i-vfpgUI0yU-nZN-k4&e=
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.psychologytoday.com_blog_theory-2Dknowledge&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=dFVdlOFuFfkQC0g6biXlvVLZsP2vJxZfvnsSXc39KVU&s=hPnpDpg37-IlprEcDtCmrkgtNgPexNBHLnt_yDLVIXo&e=>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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