Hi Brandon,
I think I see what you mean. To say "I know hold this phenomenon as object,
from my subjective perspective" does seem a little confusing.
But I wonder if there is some object/objective conflation based on an
elision between ontology and epistemology going on.
The subject-object relationship is ontologically a process of evolutionary
motion that is fundamentally transjective i.e neither objective nor
subjective as such. Kegan is making a theoretical (perhaps metaphysical)
claim that the evolving subject/object relationship is the objective basis
for the quality of our subjective experience and the epistemological
capacities it allows for. I find the idea rather beautiful. If you haven't
read it already, Kegan's introductory chapter to The Evolving Self, The
Unrecognised Genius of Jean Piaget, is, I believe, Kegan's finest work.
However, the subject-object relationship should not be reified or valorised
too much. I see it as Kegan's way of updating how we speak of the process
of assimilation, accommodation and equilibration that is Piaget 101 (but
adding psychotherapeutic perspectives to perceptual and cognitive
phenomena). I wrote about this
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__jonathanrowson.medium.com_the-2Dunrecognised-2Dgenius-2Dof-2Djean-2Dpiaget-2D78c2914e306&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=m2lmVGpfZ5hudA0iypD5-rjVkrFbHfpDf94SYH9qCNs&s=7IWPviNEVA0TjJ36Jv2pPD8C0ic0D-A6lUHjVEwZJmQ&e= >
a few years ago. The piece reads a little indulgent and naive to me now,
but I remember enjoying it at the time, and you'll like the extracted
quotes, if not my commentary on them.
eg:

“…And yet…this evolutionary motion is the prior (or grounding) phenomenon
in personality; that this process or activity, this adaptive conversation,
is the very source of, and the unifying context for, thought and feeling;
that this motion is observable, researchable, intersubjectively
ascertainable; that this understanding is crucial to our being of help to
people in pain; and that unlike other candidates for a grounding
phenomenon, this one cannot be considered arbitrary or bound over to the
partialities of sex, class, culture or historical period. It is an activity
we have always shared and always will share. Seen “psychologically” this
process is about the development of “knowing” (each evolutionary truce,
striking a subject-object balance, becomes a way of knowing the world); but
at the same time we *experience* this activity. This experience…may well be
the source of our emotions themselves. Loss and recovery, separation and
attachment, anxiety and play, depression and transformation, disintegration
and coherence-all may owe their origins to the felt experience of this
activity, this motion to which the “emotion” refers. I use the word
“meaning” to refer to this simultaneously epistemological and ontological
activity; it is about knowing and being, about theory-making and
investments and commitments of the self.”
J++


-- 
Dr. Jonathan Rowson
Founding Director, Perspectiva <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.systems-2Dsouls-2Dsociety.com_&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=m2lmVGpfZ5hudA0iypD5-rjVkrFbHfpDf94SYH9qCNs&s=FEJCMRM3-pgvh4XfLcjTYVkF6b9F-WRkt5zptULvz7M&e= >
Research Fellow, CUSP <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.cusp.ac.uk_&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=m2lmVGpfZ5hudA0iypD5-rjVkrFbHfpDf94SYH9qCNs&s=tPTKIn9bdAN4JePzetdsWaebitKBtO6EGfg8Z38AQoM&e= >
Open Society Fellow
Website <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.jonathanrowson.me&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=m2lmVGpfZ5hudA0iypD5-rjVkrFbHfpDf94SYH9qCNs&s=HmLTNue3v4V4vgphzSb-8fsd5aSzHxQwdSfZ98HsBy4&e= >
Twitter <http://@Jonathan_Rowson>
LinkedIn <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.linkedin.com_in_jonathan-2Drowson-2D14799a12b_&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=m2lmVGpfZ5hudA0iypD5-rjVkrFbHfpDf94SYH9qCNs&s=akhcceN6hhLXXzFFeNun6DVtzvhBvB0IzQEu-OGsvzk&e= >
*The Moves that Matter
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.amazon.co.uk_Moves-2Dthat-2DMatter-2DChess-2DGrandmaster_dp_1526603861&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=m2lmVGpfZ5hudA0iypD5-rjVkrFbHfpDf94SYH9qCNs&s=CPluoO_wbGmdhk0ST4yJ1NtRh09C_hOshM14ejZ9PpM&e= >:
A Chess Grandmaster on the Game of Life* is published by Bloomsbury.

On Thu, 26 May 2022 at 21:15, michael kazanjian <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

> *CAUTION: *This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click links
> or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is
> safe.
> ------------------------------
> Regard object (and subject),  I put it under ontology, not metaphysics,
> but I see "part" as more general and fundamental than object.  Metaphysics
> is part and whole, instead of subject and object.
>
> Michael M. Kazanjian
>
> On Thursday, May 26, 2022, 03:06:57 PM CDT, Brandon Norgaard <
> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>
> *CAUTION: *This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click links
> or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is
> safe.
> ------------------------------
>
> The reason that I wanted to bring this up is because the word “object”
> seems to be used in many different ways in different contexts and I wanted
> to find a way of framing this that avoids the use of that word.  Drawing
> from Tomasello, objectivity is constructed through mutual understanding of
> patterns of experience, often though not always quantifiable.  Direct
> communicative tactics such as pointing, grasping, within one’s environment
> in ways that work within the work within the visual and auditory
> communicative media allows for social corroboration, which in turn allows
> for the construction of high degrees of mutual understanding.  If there are
> developmental phenomena going on within one’s own inner world, then that
> doesn’t seem to me like the word “object” should be used.  At least, I’m
> suggesting that Vervaeke’s 4Ps of knowing could offer a set of terminology
> that seems to roughly jangle here.  In my opinion, there is way to much
> jingle around the word “object” and I want to focus on where the word is
> most useful.  This is why I point to science and journalism as standards
> for objectivity, since these professions and their related institutions and
> practitioners are using well-established processes for honing our mutual
> understanding of objects.  If I’m looking back on my earlier stages of
> development in my childhood, the word “object” doesn’t seem a good fit.
> Even if we’re talking about this happening subconsciously through a
> developmental process wherein prior stages are transcended, I don’t like
> the word “object”.  I’m offering this as an example of meta-linguistic
> processes we can go through to help us sort out jingle/jangle issues.
>
>
>
> Brandon
>
>
>
> *From:* theory of knowledge society discussion <
> [log in to unmask]> *On Behalf Of *Aydan Connor
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 26, 2022 12:47 PM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Subject:* Re: Kegan's use of subject vs. object in comparison to
> Vervaeke's 4P knowledge
>
>
>
> *CAUTION: *This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click links
> or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is
> safe.
> ------------------------------
>
> Another framing might be employed through the language of
> transparency/opacity shift: so that instead of transparently being
> *experienced* *as* *self participating,* you do an opacity shift to look
> at your socialization as an *object of self through participation.*
>
>
>
> Love this listserv,
>
> Aydan
>
>
>
> On Thu, May 26, 2022 at 11:12 Nicholas Lattanzio <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> *CAUTION: *This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click links
> or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is
> safe.
> ------------------------------
>
> Totally agree with Lene,
>
>
>
> Not that your articulation is at all wrong Brandon, rather it is a more
> forwardly developmental line of thought regarding the teleological function
> of the subject-object relationship at any given stage or point, whereas the
> subject-object orientation is a principle of this as a process
> philosophy/ontology. See A.N. Whitehead's "congresence" of "actual
> entities" according to prehensions for a model that articulates both what
> you and Lene are saying.
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Nicholas G. Lattanzio, Psy.D.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, May 26, 2022 at 5:58 AM Lene Rachel Andersen <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> *CAUTION: *This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click links
> or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is
> safe.
> ------------------------------
>
> Hi Brandon,
>
> What Kegan means by object is that one's socialization becomes an object
> to the self the way that other objects such as cats, dogs, and automobiles
> are. My subject (my self) can look at a cat and create a subjective
> understanding of it; as self-authoring, my self can also look at my
> socialization and create a subjective understanding of that.
>
> Best,
>
> Lene
>
> On 26-05-2022 09:17, Brandon Norgaard wrote:
>
> *CAUTION: *This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click links
> or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is
> safe.
> ------------------------------
>
> Robert Kegan talks about how each successive developmental stage to which
> one is subject has the previous stage as its object.  For example, at stage
> 3 you are socialized and you can only recognize how your socialization was
> determining your life when you’re at stage 4 and you can then look back on
> your previous lifeworld when you were wrapped up with socialization and you
> lacked the reflective insight that would have been necessary to keep you
> from simply going along with the crowd and constantly worrying about what
> your peers thought of you.  You can transcend this at the self-authoring
> stage 4.  Thus, Kegan says that stage 3 is the object of stage 4.
>
>
>
> This usage of subject and object is a little confusing for me.  It seems
> that both phenomena that Kegan describes are subjective.  I figure the best
> benchmarks for what “objective” means come from science and journalism.  If
> we are talking about different sorts of subjective experiences then the
> word “object” seems inappropriate.
>
>
>
> As an alternative way of talking about similar phenomena, I want to draw
> from Vervaeke’s distinction between participatory knowing and perspectival
> knowing. These are 2 of the 4 P’s of knowing.  (The other two are
> procedural and propositional, but they are less relevant to this matter at
> hand)  Participatory knowing is the ground of being, but we need to
> periodically step outside and reflect on it and develop a perspective on
> it.  This moves from participatory knowing to perspectival knowing.  To
> relate this back to Kegan, if you are in the socialized self stage 3 then
> you are participating in socialization.  At stage 4, you have a perspective
> on that prior stage because you are now at the self authoring stage.
>
>
>
> What do you guys think?  Several of you are more experienced at these
> matters than I am, but I’m just trying to work out clearer language here.
> Your comments are welcome.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Brandon
>
>
>
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> --
> *Lene Rachel Andersen*
> Futurist, economist, author & keynote speaker
> President of Nordic Bildung and co-founder of the European Bildung Network
> Full member of the Club of Rome
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-- 
Dr. Jonathan Rowson
Founding Director, Perspectiva <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.systems-2Dsouls-2Dsociety.com_&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=m2lmVGpfZ5hudA0iypD5-rjVkrFbHfpDf94SYH9qCNs&s=FEJCMRM3-pgvh4XfLcjTYVkF6b9F-WRkt5zptULvz7M&e= >
Research Fellow, CUSP <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.cusp.ac.uk_&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=m2lmVGpfZ5hudA0iypD5-rjVkrFbHfpDf94SYH9qCNs&s=tPTKIn9bdAN4JePzetdsWaebitKBtO6EGfg8Z38AQoM&e= >
Open Society Fellow
Website <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.jonathanrowson.me&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=m2lmVGpfZ5hudA0iypD5-rjVkrFbHfpDf94SYH9qCNs&s=HmLTNue3v4V4vgphzSb-8fsd5aSzHxQwdSfZ98HsBy4&e= >
Twitter <http://@Jonathan_Rowson>
LinkedIn <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.linkedin.com_in_jonathan-2Drowson-2D14799a12b_&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=m2lmVGpfZ5hudA0iypD5-rjVkrFbHfpDf94SYH9qCNs&s=akhcceN6hhLXXzFFeNun6DVtzvhBvB0IzQEu-OGsvzk&e= >
*The Moves that Matter
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.amazon.co.uk_Moves-2Dthat-2DMatter-2DChess-2DGrandmaster_dp_1526603861&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=m2lmVGpfZ5hudA0iypD5-rjVkrFbHfpDf94SYH9qCNs&s=CPluoO_wbGmdhk0ST4yJ1NtRh09C_hOshM14ejZ9PpM&e= >:
A Chess Grandmaster on the Game of Life* is published by Bloomsbury.

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