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November 2009

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Subject:
From:
Stephen Scherr <[log in to unmask]>
Reply To:
Stephen Scherr <[log in to unmask]>
Date:
Thu, 19 Nov 2009 21:05:34 -0500
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Jin,
  Good question--VA/DC FLL has a strong preference not to glue models
together at tournaments, so I don't think anyone saw any models glued.  At
the tournaments I attended, we had very few issues with the yellow guide
walls, or even with the loops (at least due to their fragility Q&A 22).  So
I do not expect to glue any models for the Championship tournament.

  We did notice that the loops on the southeast guide wall do tend to settle
and stick (Q&A 1), and referees have been asked to make sure that they are
loose.  (If the robot tries to lift them and they are not loose, then that
is faulty model setup and Rule 27 awards teams the associated points.)  Also
see Q&A 24 for loop lifting.

Steve
VA/DC FLL Referee Advisor

On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 5:44 PM, Jin Ye <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Hi, Steve:
> It's been a long time since you gave the following ruling. I might miss a
> updated message from you but I just curious in case your early ruling
> unchanged.
>
> According to Q&A 22:
> 22 - ROBOT AFTER FIELD DAMAGE
> ...
> ---Loops and yellow guide walls are known to be fragile, and damage to
> these will always draw a "benefit of the doubt" call (robot won't be
> interrupted unless the team wants it).  BUT...Don't count on them breaking -
> tournament organizers have permission to *glue* them.
>
> I noticed that the the "yellow guide walls " were not glued in the regional
> tournaments. Will the "yellow guide walls " glued at the state tournament?
>
>
> Jin
>
>
> --- On *Thu, 9/24/09, VA/DC Referee Advisor <[log in to unmask]>* wrote:
>
>
> From: VA/DC Referee Advisor <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: [VADCFLL-L] Guide wall problems
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Thursday, September 24, 2009, 11:59 PM
>
> Hello folks--
>   I have to step in here.  FIRST does not recommend that teams use anything
> to hold mission models together other than press-fitting LEGO pieces
> together and attaching them to the mat with Dual-Lock, or other specific
> instructions provided with the mission models assembly instructions.
>
>   And teams should not do it of their own volition.
>
>   Why?  Although Darlene is correct and SOME tournaments may use a fixative
> on SOME mission models on SOME tables, your FLL team can not count on the
> mission models at a tournament being any firmer/stronger than press-fitting
> allows.
>
>   Since some robots do take advantage of mission models as an aid in
> navigation, it is best to assume that the models won't be any stronger than
> the least strong they could be (you have to assume the model is properly
> assembled, of course.)
>
>   A robot that impacts a mission model and damages it, because the robot
> expected it to provide more resistance than it did, will:
> a)  get a reminder from the referee to be more careful with the models, and
> b)  probably not have the results it expected
>
>
>
> Second point:  (Rule 27)  Field Damage (i.e. damage to mission models) is
> corrected by the referee, if possible.
>
> Field Damage that happens multiple times by a robot is less likely to get
> the Benefit of the Doubt with regard to scoring, because it starts to look
> intentional, rather than accidental.
>
>
> Third point:  Yes, other people have noted that the guide walls are
> somewhat
> fragile if the raised joints are not protected when the walls are pressed
> down to the table.  Apparently an object the thickness of a quarter is just
> the right size to put under a joint when pressing on it.
>
> I do promise that the VA/DC referees will be asked to pay close attention
> to
> the structural integrity of the guide walls during tournaments.
>
>
> Steve Scherr
> VA/DC FLL Referee Advisor
>
> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 23:04:38 -0400, Darlene Pantaleo <[log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]>>
> wrote:
>
> >Tournament directors often glue fragile game components together.
> >
> >
> >On Sep 24, 2009, at 10:06 PM, Eric Palmer wrote:
> >
> >> I'll have to go back and read the rule again about if we damage the
> >> guide
> >> walls unintentionally. They are just a fragile design.  But if the
> >> walls are
> >> not solid it may change the behavior of the robots and the time it
> >> takes for
> >> the judges to piece them together may be a factor.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>    ---
> >> Eric F. Palmer
> >> [log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]>
> >> FLL 2009 Team 956 Coach
> >> FLL 2009 Team 882 Mentor
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Laura Dysart [mailto:[log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]>
> ]
> >> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 10:02 PM
> >> To: [log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]>
> >> Cc: [log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]>
> >> Subject: Re: [VADCFLL-L] Guide wall problems
> >>
> >> Will it matter if the guide walls are down? I assume it's affecting
> >> your
> >> strategy? Doesn't seem like anyone will be penalized if the walls
> >> go down?
> >> Just trying to figure out the concern.... Laura On Sep 24, 2009, at
> >> 9:53 PM,
> >> Eric Palmer wrote:
> >>
> >>> Problems with the yellow guide walls persist. After repeated runs
> >>> with
> >>> our robot the walls are not holding up and are hard to get firmly
> >>> back
> >>> together.
> >>>
> >>> The problems is that the Velcro like material lifts the sections
> >>> it is
> >>> adhered to and the other sections are now not at the same level.  We
> >>> can fix this at the home table (use more of the Velcro like stuff, or
> >>> glue the pieces).  But I'm concerned that at tournament the walls are
> >>> going to get destroyed and be hard to put together well and in a
> >>> timely way.
> >>>
> >>> Are you having problems with the guide walls as well?  Do you have
> >>> solutions?
> >>>
> >>> Eric Palmer
> >>> [log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]>
> >>>
> >>> FLL 2009 Team 956 Coach
> >>> FLL 2009 Team 882 Mentor
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