VADCFLL-L Archives

August 2014

VADCFLL-L@LISTSERV.JMU.EDU

Options: Use Monospaced Font
Show HTML Part by Default
Condense Mail Headers

Message: [<< First] [< Prev] [Next >] [Last >>]
Topic: [<< First] [< Prev] [Next >] [Last >>]
Author: [<< First] [< Prev] [Next >] [Last >>]

Print Reply
Sender:
First Lego League in Virginia and DC <[log in to unmask]>
Date:
Fri, 29 Aug 2014 15:21:59 -0400
Reply-To:
Darlene Pantaleo <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:
From:
Darlene Pantaleo <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version:
1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\))
In-Reply-To:
Content-Type:
multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_24E81D5E-BB70-4BBC-B8BB-D916F4241E36"
Comments:
To: VA-DC Referee Advisor <[log in to unmask]>
Parts/Attachments:
text/plain (12 kB) , text/html (15 kB)
So true, Steve...they can get some points for no bulb showing. I was thinking that if a team bothers to do this mission, and gets the idea model right side up and not touching the box model, why then would they risk losing those points by taking the model to base?

Teams should ask these types of questions, so I took this as a teachable moment. Perhaps I should have explained further the first time, but the intent was for a team to ask if what they are thinking about is a good idea, not that I was asking that.

Darlene




On Aug 29, 2014, at 3:12 PM, VA-DC Referee Advisor <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Darlene brings up a couple of good points.
> 
> First, scoring of the Thinking Outside the Box mission.  This appears to have a contradiction--the required condition visible at the end of the match is "If the idea is no longer touching the model, the bulb faces up," but the scoring description gives two possible scores, one with the bulb up, and one with the bulb down.
> 
> By Rule 5, Precedence/Authority, "If something on a page conflicts with something else on the same page, assume the most sensible interpretation."
> 
> The most sensible interpretation is that the required condition "bulb up" is describing only the higher scoring condition, and that the scoring description "bulb down" is also valid.
> 
> So, no, the bulb side does not have to be face up to score some points for this mission.
> [we'll save the definition of "bulb down" for later, or until an update comes out...]
> 
> 
> The second point is about Storage.
> [Rookie coaches and teams, you may want to save this until later, when you begin to think about your strategy for what things you will do during the match.]
> If the bulb model, or any other mission model, is brought back to Base, then it might get in the way, since the robot always has to restart in Base (rule 39, Start/Restart Position).  That's why your team is allowed to move stuff around to make room.
> 
> Rule 35, Storage has a lot of detail, including,
> -- You are allowed to store things in Base, outside Base, and even off the table...
> -- An object in storage is one that youíre allowed to handle, and which counts as being in Base, even if itís not actually there.
> -- You may at any time handle stored objects the robot is not interacting with
> -- Mission models and objects worth points must always stay in view of the referee.
> 
> 
> My third point is about scoring.  Rule 51, The Scoring Process, tells it all:
> -- Most of your score depends on the conditions at the exact time the match ends.
> -- The field is the evidence of most of your score
> -- Points are not given nor taken away for results produced after the match end signal ends
> -- Sometimes part of your score is permanently determined during the match instead of at the end.
> 
> For the Thinking Outside the Box mission, we know:
> 1)  if the box model was ever in Base during the match, then the team will score 0 for the mission.
> 2)  if the idea model is brought to Base and stored by the team, it always needs to stay in view of the referee
> 3)  if the idea model is brought to Base (or anywhere else), its position at the exact time the match ends will determine what score the team gets for the mission
> 
> 
> Lastly, I won't typically comment on whether an action is a good idea or not, only whether it is allowable.  Each team has different goals and abilities, and learning about and seeing their strategy in action is one of the most exciting parts of a tournament for everyone.
> 
> Steve Scherr
> VA-DC FLL Referee Advisor
> 
> 
> On Fri, Aug 29, 2014 at 9:29 AM, Darlene Pantaleo <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Steve, I want to add here that while the idea can be moved to base, it cannot be stored or flipped if they want the points for removing it. The light bulb must be showing at the end of the match.
> 
> In essence, is it a good idea to move it to base where it could conceivably be in the robot's way?
> 
> Darlene
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Aug 29, 2014, at 8:49 AM, VA-DC Referee Advisor <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> 
>> To tell the truth, I wasn't planning to watch the video until this weekend. Why?  Because it's only some highlights of the missions, and doesn't have the details of the game that teams will need to know.  Robot Bill noted the reference to that in the rules.
>> 
>> The FLL Robot Game is like other games--there are things that your team is allowed to do, that may have consequences that your team doesn't like.  For example, when playing soccer (in real life!), a team *can* kick the ball out of bounds, but they may not *want* to kick the ball out of bounds, because then the other team gets to control the ball.
>> 
>> In this year's Robot Game, your robot *can* bring the box to Base.  That is allowed; there is no rule against it.  Your team probably doesn't *want* to bring the box to Base, because then they won't get any points for the Thinking Outside the Box mission.
>> 
>> So let's take a look at the details of the team's question.
>> - In the Missions document, the mission description talks about two objects-- the "box model" and the "idea model".
>> 
>> - The Field Setup document talks about the "box" and the "slab".  This could be confusing, but we use the picture in the mission description to recognize that the "idea model" is the "slab" that has the "light bulb" image on it.
>> 
>> - The mission text describes the "box model" and the "idea model" as two separate, independent objects, even though the Field Setup has one of them start inside the other.
>> 
>> - The mission text has the constraint that the "box model" must never be in Base, in order to get points for the mission.
>> 
>> Does this constraint also mean that the "ideal model" has to stay out of Base to earn points for the mission?
>>   -  Rule 2:  There are no hidden requirements or restrictions. If youíve read everything, then you know everything.
>>   -  Rule 2:  Robot game text means exactly and only what it says, so take it literally whenever possible.
>>   -  So, since the mission only says "box model", then it only means "box model" and the constraint doesn't apply to the "idea model".
>> 
>>   The team asked if they could bring the "idea model" to Base.  Yes, that is allowed by the Rules.  Are there any consequences that they don't like?  Not for the Thinking Outside the Box mission.  If the "idea model" is in Base during the match, and the "box model" is never in Base during the match, then the team can earn the points for that mission.
>> 
>> 
>>    Everyone will see in our future discussions that we'll look at what happens to individual objects separately (especially see Rule 27, "In"), and that is the distinction that we are making here.
>> 
>> Steve Scherr
>> VA-DC FLL Referee Advisor
>> 
>> 
>> On Fri, Aug 29, 2014 at 6:52 AM, Parvathy Krishnan <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> I thought the video said you cannot bring the box to the base. Am I mistaken?
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Aug 29, 2014, at 12:49 AM, VA-DC Referee Advisor <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> 
>>> This is a great question to kick of the World Class season!  It gives a chance to demonstrate how to use the Robot Game materials.
>>> 
>>> The first thing to know is that the rules and the game change from year to year.  If something was true in a past season, that should only give your team a hint to look for it in this year's game....!
>>> 
>>> In the World Class Rules, Information category, Rule 5, Precedence/Authority tells us that:
>>> 
>>> You get information about the robot game from more than one place. Once in a while,there is conflict...
>>> So here is the order of precedence for the sources:
>>> 1 = CURRENT Robot Game Updates, 2 = Missions and Field Setup, 3 = Rules
>>> ...
>>> When there is conflict between pictures/videos and text, the text takes precedence!
>>> 
>>> 
>>> So, I will always try to cite the text from the Updates, Missions, Field Setup, and Rules when I discuss a question about the Robot Game.
>>> 
>>> In the Philosophy category, Rule 2, Interpretation really gets to the heart of the question:
>>> Robot game text means exactly and only what it says, so take it literally whenever possible.
>>> - If a detail isnít mentioned, then it doesnít matter.
>>> - There are no hidden requirements or restrictions. If youíve read everything, then you know everything.
>>> ...and....
>>> --Youíre encouraged to think this way - Please learn the requirements and constraints very well, and then realize the many FREEDOMS that are left.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Do make sure that your team reads the examples in Rule 2 and discusses them.  It's what makes the Robot Game so much fun--understanding an obeying the constraints and figuring out something crazy that does a great job anyway!
>>> 
>>> So, yes, if there is nothing special written about the idea model, then the team may do anything with it within the rules.  The required method for the Thinking Outside the Box mission is that "The box model was never in Base."  As the team recognized, this constraint does not say anything about the idea model.  So, if there's nothing else in the game that limits where or how the idea model may be moved, then the robot may move that model anywhere, in any allowable way.
>>> 
>>> Steve Scherr
>>> VA-DC FLL Referee Advisor
>>> 
>>> P.S. for everyone--See the Critical Warning at the end of the Rules.  Every team wants to have at least one member who is an expert on the game documents, and the best teams challenge each other to think of ideas and decide whether they are allowable, and, if not, how to tweak them so that they are.  (But only to use them if they are helpful to the team, of course!)
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 10:40 PM, Rick Fontanilla <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Our team just had a meeting to discuss the missions.  One of the big
>>> > discussions was the Outside the Box mission.  Challenge says the idea
>>> > model is no longer touching the box model.  The box model was never in
>>> > Base.  One of the kids asked if we could bring the idea model to base.  I
>>> > said, in the past seasons, if it is not in the rules specifically, then you can
>>> > do it.
>>> > Does that sound right?
>>> >
>>> > -- To UNSUBSCRIBE or CHANGE your settings, please visit https://listserv.jmu.edu/archives/vadcfll-l.html and select "Join or leave the list".
>>> >
>>> > -- VADCFLL administrative announcements are sent via VADCFLL-ANNOUNCEMENTS-L. Visit https://listserv.jmu.edu/archives/vadcfll-ANNOUNCEMENTS-l.html to subscribe.
>>> 
>>> To UNSUBSCRIBE or CHANGE your settings, please visit https://listserv.jmu.edu/archives/vadcfll-l.html and select "Join or leave the list". 
>>> VADCFLL administrative announcements are sent via VADCFLL-ANNOUNCEMENTS-L. Visit https://listserv.jmu.edu/archives/vadcfll-announcements-l.html to subscribe.
>> 
>> To UNSUBSCRIBE or CHANGE your settings, please visit https://listserv.jmu.edu/archives/vadcfll-l.html and select "Join or leave the list". 
>> VADCFLL administrative announcements are sent via VADCFLL-ANNOUNCEMENTS-L. Visit https://listserv.jmu.edu/archives/vadcfll-announcements-l.html to subscribe.
>> 
>> To UNSUBSCRIBE or CHANGE your settings, please visit https://listserv.jmu.edu/archives/vadcfll-l.html and select "Join or leave the list". 
>> VADCFLL administrative announcements are sent via VADCFLL-ANNOUNCEMENTS-L. Visit https://listserv.jmu.edu/archives/vadcfll-announcements-l.html to subscribe.
> 
> To UNSUBSCRIBE or CHANGE your settings, please visit https://listserv.jmu.edu/archives/vadcfll-l.html and select "Join or leave the list". 
> VADCFLL administrative announcements are sent via VADCFLL-ANNOUNCEMENTS-L. Visit https://listserv.jmu.edu/archives/vadcfll-announcements-l.html to subscribe.
> 
> To UNSUBSCRIBE or CHANGE your settings, please visit https://listserv.jmu.edu/archives/vadcfll-l.html and select "Join or leave the list". 
> VADCFLL administrative announcements are sent via VADCFLL-ANNOUNCEMENTS-L. Visit https://listserv.jmu.edu/archives/vadcfll-announcements-l.html to subscribe.


-- To UNSUBSCRIBE or CHANGE your settings, please visit https://listserv.jmu.edu/archives/vadcfll-l.html and select "Join or leave the list".

-- VADCFLL administrative announcements are sent via VADCFLL-ANNOUNCEMENTS-L. Visit https://listserv.jmu.edu/archives/vadcfll-ANNOUNCEMENTS-l.html to subscribe.


ATOM RSS1 RSS2