Really enjoyed these reflections, Joe. Thanks for sharing.

On Mon, Apr 27, 2020 at 12:01 PM Joseph Michalski <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Hi folks. I'm not sure if I'm the only sociologist within the ToK Society
> listserv, but I'll weigh in with two issues: 1) distal vs. proximal causes;
> and 2) "explaining" vs. "excusing" behavior.
>
> On the first issue, I'm following up on Lene's distinction between
> childhood and adult issues. A major limitation in our sociological research
> revolves around the problem of studying behavior in "real time" and "over
> time." We rarely conduct the types of studies that would allow us to model
> human behavior over time and evaluate the "mechanisms" that produce
> different behavioral outcomes, whether at the individual or group level. We
> certainly do very little experimental research or RCTs. That said, it's not
> uncommon in sociology to conduct waves of surveys or retrospective
> interviews to assess childhood experiences. What comes out of these studies
> are suggestive correlations or the identification of "risk factors"
> associated with certain outcomes. Often the "outcomes" in question are
> "bad" things that happen or that people do (which speaks to the second
> issue that I'll get to in a few moments). Let me us a study of mine that I
> published in 2017 to illustrate.
>
> I interviewed two "matched" cohorts of males mostly in their early 20s: 1)
> 38 inmates who had been convicted of murder, attempted murder or violent
> robberies from Ontario; and 2) 66 university students of the same
> generation and raised in Ontario as well. The in-depth, retrospective
> interviews covered 4 time periods: 1) early childhood (< 6 years old); 2)
> transition to adolescence; 3) high school years; and 4) early adulthood.
> Long story short, the sample of convicted "violent offenders" were far more
> likely to have experienced "toxic childhood environments," defined as
> having been exposed to a minimum of 3 of the following 6 conditions:
>
> *Table 2: Parental Behaviors by Age Five for Inmates and Students*
>
> Parental Behaviors
>
> % Inmates
>
> (n = 38)
>
> % Students
>
> (n = 66)
>
> Daily drinking or alcoholism
>
> 57.9
>
> 45.5
>
> Drug use or addiction
>
> 44.7
>
> 6.1
>
> Criminal involvement
>
> 21.1
>
> 4.5
>
> Family violence/spousal conflict
>
> 76.3
>
> 16.7
>
> Child maltreatment
>
> 57.9
>
> 13.7
>
> Family instability
>
> 47.4
>
> 12.1
>
>
>
> In total, 30 of 38 inmates experienced at least 3 of the above conditions
> through age 5. Only 2 of the university students had experienced similar
> "toxic childhood experiences" over the course of their entire childhood
> years. The differences in early childhood experience, combined with what
> happened at each key life transition (e.g., about half of the inmates with
> the toxic environments had joined gangs by the time they were teens), led
> the two cohorts down very different pathways that landed them in vastly
> different state institutions. As young adults (18-24), the inmates were far
> more likely to have committed violent crimes (and most did not complete
> high school) and most of the university students had not. That's the
> overall, simplified view.
>
> People then ask me about how I can interview violent offenders and not
> react to some of the awful stories that I hear about (and, yes, some of the
> violent offences are quite disturbing and predatory in nature). I make the
> point that I'm not there trying to "excuse" the behavior or condone what
> they have done, but rather I'm just trying to understand their pathways
> into violent criminality and compare that with people who have gone down
> different pathways. It's obviously a quite inexact science, at least with
> the methodology that I used. At the same time, these data (and many other
> studies) confirm that there are indeed many "risk factors" and long-lasting
> impacts of adverse childhood experiences (e.g., the narratives and examples
> the inmates provide of what actually happened to them are in many cases
> even more disturbing than their eventual crimes). And that's our conundrum.
> We want to explain why people do "bad" things without "excusing" or
> condoning the behavior. And that's why there's a parallel struggle in the
> criminal justice system in the efforts to balance the "punishments" (or
> "retribution") for bad behavior with the "therapeutic" dimensions aimed at
> "rehabilitation." And this gets to the core of some philosophical
> differences too in terms of the main objective of the criminal justice
> system (e.g., retribution vs. rehabilitation).
>
> I hope this is helpful in terms of the contextual view that I take as a
> sociologist. What I did *not* do or have access to would be the
> psychosocial profiles of the inmates or students, especially in relation to
> the critical junctures and life events. I don't know how many would
> register as having mental illnesses, for example, or how many had
> conditions such as ADD/ADHD (though some volunteered such info). I mainly
> know (imperfectly) with *some* degree of confidence that being raised in
> toxic environments drastically increased the odds of doing violent,
> horrible stuff happening in young adulthood. The university students had
> far less toxic environments by comparison and, when they *did* do "bad"
> things as teens or start down different pathways, they had more resources
> and social supports to help get them back on track (e.g., more likely to
> have parents deeply involved in their lives or a teacher or a coach who
> invested heavily or loved them unconditionally).
>
> An editorial observation. Almost all of the inmates, while not necessarily
> "enlightened Buddhas" or people who would likely be in my inner circle of
> friends, were actually fairly "normal" in terms of our conversations, the
> efforts they were taking to improve their schooling, aspirations for not
> ending up back in jail, family concerns, etc. I'm not suggesting that
> they're mainly getting all that they need in prison and will come out as
> role models - many still have their own problems with addictions, lack of
> credentials, psych issues that are beyond my bailiwick, while many also
> lack support systems if/when they get out. That said, there were 3 people
> (of 38) whom I, as a non-psychologist, experienced as deeply disturbed in
> my interactions with them (they were "nice" to me, for what that's worth)
> in terms of how they conveyed their stories, the "lack of remorse" or
> "empathy", or other signs of various disturbances. Hating to sound
> judgmental, in these 3 cases I remember thinking "I'm really glad you're
> locked up because you truly come across as deeply disturbed" (but I just
> smiled and thanked them for sharing their stories!).
>
> In closing, I guess I'd say "it's complicated" when we're trying to
> understand "adult behavior," due to the interplay of distal (e.g.,
> childhood experiences) and proximal factors (neighborhoods, racism,
> unemployment, credentials, financial struggles, current relationships,
> etc.) to explain "why" people behave as they do, to say nothing about how
> we then *evaluate* the behavior from a moral standpoint. On the latter
> point, what we *do *know as one of the few "iron laws of sociology"? The
> greater the social/cultural distance between the observer and the
> individual/group observed, the greater the likelihood of our viewing their
> behavior or even their very existence in a negative light. Conversely, we
> are far more understanding and forgiving of our intimates to the point
> where we deny that they could possibly be responsible for "bad" behavior
> (e.g., "my son would *never* do that - I didn't raise a monster!).
>
> Wishing you all peace, health, and understanding, -joe
>
> Dr. Joseph H. Michalski
>
> King’s University College at Western University
>
> 266 Epworth Avenue
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.google.com_maps_search_266-2BEpworth-2BAvenue-3Fentry-3Dgmail-26source-3Dg&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=2n7ZCQQ6FY2dVo-8JOBpxo1W9QvQE1LlE6bTpBsZsTI&s=_t6c1SN8uaV-5i3_1vIM_pB8yFVHZs-cpTfCKCRqK2o&e=>,
> DL-201
>
> London, Ontario, Canada  N6A 2M3
>
> Tel: (519) 433-3491
>
> Email: [log in to unmask]
>
> ______________________
>
> *ei*π + 1 = 0
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* tree of knowledge system discussion <
> [log in to unmask]> on behalf of Lene Rachel Andersen -
> Nordic Bildung / Fremvirke <
> [log in to unmask]>
> *Sent:* Monday, April 27, 2020 11:09 AM
> *To:* [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
> *Subject:* Re: Lockdown protesters resemble “child soldiers” and “urban
> gangs”
>
>
> Hi Catherine,
>
> Good question, thank you.
>
> There are two sets of issues, the second with two sub-sets of issues:
>
>    1. Things that went wrong in childhood and have lasting consequences
>    2. Things that went wrong in adulthood
>       1. Individual issues
>       2. Societal issues
>
> The 2-2 societal issues must be addressed politically and culturally, not
> as mental health / illness.
>
> / Lene
>
> On 27-04-2020 17:01, Wilson, Katherine Christine - wilso3kc wrote:
>
> As I am following this conversation, I find myself a bit confused.
>
> I am understanding that people are saying that we should not view mindsets
> that lead to becoming a child soldier or "social distancing protestor" as
> stemming from mental illness, but rather from societal inequities. However,
> are not most mental illnesses often the result of some inequity, trauma,
> repression, suppression, power dynamic, or developmental challenge due to
> lack of proper care, education, and access to basic core needs being met? I
> am not understanding how an individual who becomes borderline or depressed
> as an adult, after a childhood that involves abuse, rape, poverty, and/or
> neglect, is different from someone who protests in the streets as a result
> of job insecurity, xenophobic upbringings, and poor education?
>
> where do we draw the line between mental illness and social inequity? I am
> genuinely a bit stuck here...
>
> On Apr 27, 2020, at 10:11 AM, Zachary Stein <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Thanks Lene. Agreed.
>
> Child soldiers and gang members are to be understood and helped with
> compassion and in ways that explicitly address the social, economic, and
> political contexts that placed their lives in such turmoil. Approaching
> "these people" as if they are mentally ill is the wrong frame.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Apr 27, 2020, at 9:40 AM, Lene Rachel Andersen - Nordic Bildung /
> Fremvirke <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> 
>
> Hello everybody,
>
> I think the best way to fight the idiocy is to produce a stronger
> narrative.
>
> What actually makes America great?
>
> American science, American ingenuity, American medicine, American
> collaboration, American expertise, American health care workers, American
> hardship, American perseverance, American spirit, American doctors,
> American technicians, American nurses, American...
>
> And have somebody whom the Trump segment admires tout that story as loudly
> as possible; addressing anxious people who are under-educated, who have
> lost their livelihood in the globalized economy and who react
> understandably to a situation that leaves them powerless as a mental health
> issue would be an arrogant mistake.
>
> / Lene
> On 27-04-2020 15:14, nysa71 wrote:
>
> Hi ToK Society,
>
> An excellent --- though disturbing --- article where Yale psychiatrist,
> Brandy Lee, is interviewed:
>
> *"A Yale psychiatrist has warned that pro-Trump lockdown protesters, who
> exhibit similar psychology as 'child soldiers,' could quickly turn into
> 'armed troops in the streets' if the president loses his re-election bid.*
> *"Dr. Bandy X. Lee, a forensic psychiatrist at the Yale School of
> Medicine, said the armed protests were a natural evolution of the loyalty
> President Trump demands from his supporters. Many of these protests have
> evidently been organized by deep-pocketed groups allied with the
> president."*
>
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.salon.com_2020_04_23_yale-2Dpsychiatrist-2Dbandy-2Dlee-2Dlockdown-2Dprotesters-2Dresemble-2Dchild-2Dsoldiers-2Dand-2Durban-2Dgangs_&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=2n7ZCQQ6FY2dVo-8JOBpxo1W9QvQE1LlE6bTpBsZsTI&s=QmadCRYY5DHYS5KLiE75D_jlJnKtApzMlSo8MQOzyqI&e=
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.salon.com_2020_04_23_yale-2Dpsychiatrist-2Dbandy-2Dlee-2Dlockdown-2Dprotesters-2Dresemble-2Dchild-2Dsoldiers-2Dand-2Durban-2Dgangs_&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=RS9io8Cke8UTz735yUH9toJIraIP4tGQJFXx1Lrp86c&s=x5PVuK1Z2Yt1MDrPIyGseNkQyKdzVElIEKD2hTPs56g&e=>
>
> The mentality of these people should be of deep concern to mental health
> professionals, and I hope it is of top priority among the mental health
> community right now.
>
> ~ Jason Bessey
>
>
>
>
>
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