Somebody wrote an interesting piece on the topic here:
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.nytimes.com_2020_02_13_opinion_scandinavia-2Deducation.html&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=PtxgKZg5zgkiQN_IZK_Am9XV3nRlwtVKVaxBu5P9PhM&s=DISDYi_lheeY2FzqGcW9N3adzPmOs0FqlVaAy6uSQfU&e= ;-)
/ Lene
On 14-02-2020 02:53, Alexander Elung wrote:
>
> I could literally talk about this for ten hours. If you really want
> to understand what value is, then start reading Mises. But, let me
> give you a brief explanation since you asked ; Value is always
> subjective, meaning that there is no such thing as fixed value or
> objective value. So what determines value is the opinion of whoever
> is evaluating it. I can find my collection of baby-teeth invaluable,
> however to another person they can be worthless.
> Air has no value if you have plenty of it, however if air is limited
> the value can become unlimited. However it you are hanging yourself,
> air wouldn’t be worth anything even if you didn’t have any. So value
> is always subjective, however subjectivity isn’t relativativistic,
> it’s relative to intention. But in general, generating value means
> that you are doing something other people find valuable.
>
> Best
>
> Elung
>
>
> *Fra: *Chance McDermott <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> *Sendt: *14. februar 2020 02:06
> *Til: *[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> *Emne: *Re: Interesting critique of life in US
>
> Alexander E,
>
> What determines what is valuable?
>
> Best,
>
> -Chance
>
> On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 6:26 PM Alexander Elung
> <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
>
> I don’t actually think success has anything to do with luck.
> Unsuccessful people who win the lottery very often ends up broke
> again within very short time frames. The amount of wealth you
> accumulate can be dependent on luck . You can be born rich (
> luck) you can win the lottery ( luck) - however wealth isn’t
> success. Success is the act of generating value. Which means
> that you have to bring value to other people, which is rarely
> something you can accomplish by luck.
>
> Let’s take an extreme example ; Paris Hiltons success came from
> her being extremely proficient at marketing herself – she was rich
> before that, but being successful required her to make something
> which other people wanted to consume. That didn’t have anything
> to do with luck.
>
> You can be lucky and be born rich. You can be lucky and win the
> lottery – but to be successful, you have to be the one who is
> generating the value.
>
> Best
>
> Elung
>
> *Fra: *Alexander Bard <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> *Sendt: *14. februar 2020 01:07
> *Til: *[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> *Emne: *Re: Interesting critique of life in US
>
> Touché, my dear Namesake, that was exactly my point.
>
> Then add the humility of chance/fate. If we are ever successful
> it helps both us and our surroundings to understand that both hard
> work, deep studies and a big dose of luck got us where we are at.
>
> Not that it makes society immune against envy and ressentiment,
> the ultimate social poisons. But it gives us a proper ethical
> position from which to fight those passive-aggressive delusions.
>
> We hav merely just begun to fight and overcome the horrors of mass
> narcissism.
>
> Big love
>
> Alexander Bard
>
> Den fre 14 feb. 2020 kl 01:00 skrev Alexander Elung
> <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>:
>
> ” And success is defined as status, wealth, attractiveness,
> capacity and means to act as one pleases, etc. This is not a
> fulfilling conception of personhood. The goal, it seems to me,
> is to seek to change minds and societal structures that
> reflects our conceptions of what it means to be good persons,
> what it means to have good relationships, and what it means to
> cultivate a society that promotes human flourishing rather
> than merely human self-interest. This, I think, is what will
> make us feel whole, rather than empty. ”
>
> The problem with a statement such as this, is that you don’t
> seem to understand what success actually is to begin with.
> To succeed at something, you have to create value. To create
> value, people have to value what you are doing. Being a good
> person can make you extremely successful, if you are actually
> providing other people value. Helping other people can be
> extremely profitable if you are good at it – like inventing
> something which will make peoples lives easier.
>
> The idea that you think changing societal structures, will
> change the definition of success, leads me to believe that you
> don’t understand either how success or societal structures work.
>
> “The “feel less” in the quote, IMO, refers to the emptiness
> that shallow achievement and consumerism breeds, in contrast
> to a deeper grounding in being and an awareness of the virtues
> that guide our sense of personhood. I certainly think that was
> the point Mike was making.”
>
>
> The problem has nothing to do with consumerism. Achieving
> something is hard and requires work. What makes a person
> successful is the creation of something, which other people
> values. You can’t change minds and societal structures and
> then expect everybody to be successful and feel achievement –
> however you can instill the understanding in people, that they
> are responsible for their own feeling of meaning and that it’s
> something they have to work for.
>
> I suspect this is also what Bard meant with the John Wayne
> allegory.
>
> best
>
> Elung
>
> *Fra: *Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> *Sendt: *14. februar 2020 00:49
> *Til: *[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> *Emne: *Re: Interesting critique of life in US
>
> Alexander,
>
> You do have a way of putting things 😊. I think your
> (somewhat justified) frustration with the modern state of
> America and its problem with infantile narcissism may cause
> you to read the quotation differently than I did. The “feel
> less” in the quote, IMO, refers to the emptiness that shallow
> achievement and consumerism breeds, in contrast to a deeper
> grounding in being and an awareness of the virtues that guide
> our sense of personhood. I certainly think that was the point
> Mike was making.
>
> Peace,
>
> G
>
> *From:*tree of knowledge system discussion
> <[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> *On Behalf Of
> *Alexander Bard
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 13, 2020 6:31 PM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> *Subject:* Re: Interesting critique of life in US
>
> Dear Mike
>
> As aa European I'm actually tired of Americans who feel too
> much and rely on their feelings for absolutely everything. We
> get stuck in Californian hippie talk if I'm brutally honest.
>
> I like John Wayne who as an ethical figure does what is right
> without feeling a thing. Philosophers like Zizek and Badiou
> probably even jerk off at his feet.
>
> So the problem is American Inidividualism going to into a
> supernova phase as American hypernarcissism. As if John Wayne
> only defends himself and not his community.
>
> We are all sick and tired of that and we know that the proper
> response is concepts like "congregation" and "community", the
> nicest damn words in American English.
>
> But am I the only one here sensing that "emotions" communicate
> a brat stuck at his mother's tit rather than a properly adult
> American?
>
> Just asking.
>
> Best intentions
>
> Alexander Bard
>
> Den tors 13 feb. 2020 kl 20:12 skrev Michael Mascolo
> <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>:
>
> HI All:
>
> I found this article to be quite illuminative of our
> current condition. I particularly found this quote to be
> very valuable:
>
> As the American physician and psychotherapist
> Alexander Lowen acknowledged: “The modern individual
> is committed to being successful, not to being a
> person. He belongs rightly to the ‘action generation’
> whose motto is ‘do more but feel less.”
>
> I think that this really gets at the core of the issue —
> even more than the idea that we are acquisitive commodity
> seekers. The idea that contemporary capitalist society is
> organized to foster a sense of acquisitiveness has always
> struck me as appropriate, but secondary to something else.
> This is the something else that I think is more important.
>
> The most powerful of all human motives, I think, are
> identity motives. We are motivated to uphold images of
> who we want to be and, morally, who we believe we should
> be. In the current version of our capitalist culture, the
> images of “who we want to be” are defined by “success”.
> And success is defined as status, wealth, attractiveness,
> capacity and means to act as one pleases, etc. This is not
> a fulfilling conception of personhood. The goal, it seems
> to me, is to seek to change minds and societal structures
> that reflects our conceptions of what it means to be good
> persons, what it means to have good relationships, and
> what it means to cultivate a society that promotes human
> flourishing rather than merely human self-interest. This,
> I think, is what will make us feel whole, rather than empty.
>
> My Very Best,
>
> Mike
>
> *Michael F. Mascolo, Ph.D.*
>
> Academic Director, Compass Program
>
> Professor, Department of Psychology
> Merrimack College, North Andover, MA 01845
> 978.837.3503 (office)
> 978.979.8745 (cell)
>
> *Blogs: **Values Matter*
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Furldefense.proofpoint.com-252Fv2-252Furl-253Fu-253Dhttps-2D3A-5F-5Fwww.psychologytoday.com-5Fus-5Fblog-5Fvalues-2D2Dmatter-2526d-253DDwMFaQ-2526c-253DeLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn-5F5nBEmmeq0-2526r-253DHPo1IXYDhKClogP-2DUOpybo6Cfxxz-2DjIYBgjO2gOz4-2DA-2526m-253DvuG1Ian-2Dl09djamvwiHIvZ4jraX57BK5vTxdtQlIx5Q-2526s-253DxCZfkxTwo5r1C2dxhhhYYJ19FxqoOtzWxuObPbAqTFQ-2526e-253D-26data-3D02-257C01-257C-257C28f8a5ea23374658d2a808d7b0df4f8c-257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa-257C1-257C0-257C637172345462365545-26sdata-3DFhPtQnx-252B-252B4ut-252B9C-252FG1a0onBc64SfkzDm5eNgnIHrvfo-253D-26reserved-3D0%26d%3DDwMGaQ%26c%3DeLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0%26r%3DHPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A%26m%3DrZLfZBIaeeAwdEHI_ZQndfUPY5NW_IPNgKvkH74n6p4%26s%3DIUwa8GSwSNmb0udxc0cZ_RHtzRQA2Qh6Aozj7fSpbMc%26e%3D&data=02%7C01%7C%7C15dc760d390c4d32db7c08d7b0ea18ad%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637172391788161636&sdata=LCCif5wt1%2FmmFJd2f2GwZX%2BBBVR6QpKCVFcrZkCnWYM%3D&reserved=0>
>
> *Journal: **/Pedagogy and the Human Sciences/*
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>
> *Coaching and Author Website: **www.michaelmascolo.com*
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Furldefense.proofpoint.com-252Fv2-252Furl-253Fu-253Dhttp-2D3A-5F-5Fwww.michaelmascolo.com-5F-2526d-253DDwMFaQ-2526c-253DeLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn-5F5nBEmmeq0-2526r-253DHPo1IXYDhKClogP-2DUOpybo6Cfxxz-2DjIYBgjO2gOz4-2DA-2526m-253DvuG1Ian-2Dl09djamvwiHIvZ4jraX57BK5vTxdtQlIx5Q-2526s-253DKq-2DTVTrZUhDpcmjDtOTVzvJfSWeFbp8IzG-2DuRoP8Vn4-2526e-253D-26data-3D02-257C01-257C-257C28f8a5ea23374658d2a808d7b0df4f8c-257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa-257C1-257C0-257C637172345462386444-26sdata-3DDOnGaj56cHakUB-252FOgnlR8SqqqknipSTGoua91mTwhE8-253D-26reserved-3D0%26d%3DDwMGaQ%26c%3DeLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0%26r%3DHPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A%26m%3DrZLfZBIaeeAwdEHI_ZQndfUPY5NW_IPNgKvkH74n6p4%26s%3D2Y5wfIDanUmBcnB-SMprCb40t7Y933aay2c037tuxgg%26e%3D&data=02%7C01%7C%7C15dc760d390c4d32db7c08d7b0ea18ad%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637172391788171641&sdata=oBw%2BOez2VJUdChrDHwqR3gstwPn%2BjIYycsp%2FAvRVj0w%3D&reserved=0>
>
> *Academia Home Page:
> **https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__merrimack.academia.edu_MichaelMascolo-2A&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=PtxgKZg5zgkiQN_IZK_Am9XV3nRlwtVKVaxBu5P9PhM&s=6KvYeaMypJlxjqqHpT8CLdYIZAwnV2K77Z0uVYtvDI4&e=
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>
>
> "/Things move, persons act./" -- Kenneth Burke
> "/If it's not worth doing, it's not worth doing well/." --
> Donald Hebb
>
> On Feb 13, 2020, at 12:55 PM, Chance McDermott
> <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> This article seems to well-describe the frustrated
> situation that many experience. It is an absurd and
> awkward situation.
>
> On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 7:57 AM nysa71
> <[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> wrote:
>
> Gregg,
>
> The article is simply neoliberalism / late stage
> capitalism in a nutshell. We need to stop trying
> to adapt to such a system, and start shifting to a
> system that adapts to us. The current Democratic
> primary is a perfect reflection of those two
> competing sentiments, with most candidates (if not
> all but one of those candidates), a reflection (to
> varying degrees) of the former sentiment. That
> simply will not --- and cannot --- do. It's why
> I'm a Bernie guy, and couldn't care less about the
> rest of them.
>
> ~ Jason
>
> On Thursday, February 13, 2020, 07:04:07 AM EST,
> Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
>
> Hi TOK List,
>
> Someone recently shared this article with me.
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__medium.com_-40erikrittenberry_the-2Damerican-2Dlife-2Dis-2Dkilling-2Dyou-2D9e7e68135f4a&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=PtxgKZg5zgkiQN_IZK_Am9XV3nRlwtVKVaxBu5P9PhM&s=MG0jjkWASlgRof68rDPg0rm8tI_ap5fTzNLyAHCwTQQ&e=
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>
> Would love to get reactions if folks have them.
>
> Best,
>
> Gregg
>
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